Bioavailability of Vitamin C

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#61  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:35 am

Thank you johnwen. This morning we ran the 250 mg of ascorbic acid every minute for 40 minutes measurements to compare with our IV/C readings. This is the graph that would be interesting to see together with the IV/C graph.

Code: Select all

Baseline.

B   112

water

A  131
B  125
C  127


Gulp 250 mg Ascorbic Acid in 1 ounce water at the minute (skin prick).


Code: Select all

Meter                          Time                          Reading
A                                 +1                              162
  B                               +2                                   148
     C                            +3                                         140
A                                 +4                              132
  B                               +5                                    146
     C                            +6                                          157
A                                 +7                              158
  B                               +8                                     202
     C                            +9                                           137
A                                +10                             148
  B                              +11                                     157
    C                            +12                                             205
A                                +13                             247
  B                              +14                                      123
    C                            +15                                              160
A                                +16                             129                                                  *  may have not rotated meters properly
  B                              +17                                       147
     C                           +18                                              183
A                                +19                             130
   B                              +20                                     138
     C                           +21                                              139                                   * readjusted meters
     C                           +22                                              166
A                                +23                              159
   B                             +24                                       116
     C                           +25                                              138
A                                +26                              142
   B                             +27                                       269
      C                          +28                                             139
A                                +29                              124
   B                             +30                                       124
     C                           +31                                               167
A                                +32                              139
   B                             +33                                       116
     C                           +34                                               138
A                                +35                              218
   B                             +36                                       133
      C                          +37                                               180
A                                +38                              160
   B                             +39                                       122
      C                          +40                                               157
A                                +41                              184
   B                             +42                                      134


Notes: Much more complex procedure. Requires at least two people, we could have used a third.

First step was measuring 250 mg of ascorbic acid using a gram scale and putting in 40 1 oz plastic cups (see picture below). (We made some extras - and we needed them - spills)

Then we began mixing as the 250 mg was hard to dissolve in 1 oz of water - required stirring.

I began the experiment by gulping one ounce (250 mg aa) at Time zero, and then pricking my finger and then gulping the next ounce every minute thereafter.

At some point I believe I missed a gulp - (maybe around minute 13 looking at the numbers) which is why we extended another minute.

I also mixed up the meter rotation at some point, but when I noticed, I corrected.

Observations.

1. Surprised that the very first minute again showed the immediate increase we have grown to expect. (only 250 mg)

2. Also different from IV in that the water was taken orally along with the vitamin C.

3. Have to wait for johnwen's graph of IV/C versus this experiment to see if any bioavailability comparison can be made.

Next experiment will likely be 10 grams of glucose - all at the same time.


Image

Added - about 1 hour later - minor but definite bowel tolerance reaction :) (Something that did not happen when I gulped 10 grams ascorbic acid all at once, and according to theory, would mean that a portion of the 10 grams taken 250 mg every minute was not absorbed and made it to the rectum.)
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#62  Post by Johnwen » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:48 pm

So you reached BT???
Maybe you over worked your exocrine limits of the ol’ Pancreas? :o




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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#63  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:50 am

Hmmm.. Maybe this will help understand what happened.

Here are the averages of the three readings - every 3 minutes. If you could do another graph versus IV (uses the middle minute - consolidated below) thank in advance!



Code: Select all

Meter                          Time                          Reading
A                                 +1                              162
  B                               +2                                   148
     C                            +3                                         140
         Ave   150
A                                 +4                              132
  B                               +5                                    146
     C                            +6                                          157
         Ave    145
A                                 +7                              158
  B                               +8                                     202
     C                            +9                                           137
         Ave     165.6
A                                +10                             148
  B                              +11                                     157
    C                            +12                                             205
        Ave      170
A                                +13                             247
  B                              +14                                      123
    C                            +15                                              160
      Ave       176.6
A                                +16                             129                                                  *  may have not rotated meters properly
  B                              +17                                       147
     C                           +18                                              183
     Ave       153
A                                +19                             130
   B                              +20                                     138
     C                           +21                                              139                                   * readjusted meters
    Ave     135.6
     C                           +22                                              166
A                                +23                              159
   B                             +24                                       116
    Ave     147
     C                           +25                                              138
A                                +26                              142
   B                             +27                                       269
    Ave   183
      C                          +28                                             139
A                                +29                              124
   B                             +30                                       124
   Ave   129
     C                           +31                                               167
A                                +32                              139
   B                             +33                                       116
   Ave    140.6
     C                           +34                                               138
A                                +35                              218
   B                             +36                                       133
   Ave   163
      C                          +37                                               180
A                                +38                              160
   B                             +39                                       122
   Ave   154
      C                          +40                                               157
A                                +41                              184
   B                             +42                                      134
  Ave   158.3


The averages:

Code: Select all

Average            Time
150                  +2
145                  +5
165.6               +8
170                  +11
176.6               +14
153                  +17
135.6               +20
147                  +23
183                  +26
129                  +29
140.6               +32
163                  +35
154                  +38
158.3               +41
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#64  Post by Johnwen » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:19 am

Here’s the average from the shots and IV.
I also averaged out the IV and 250mg shots!!



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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#65  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:26 pm

Thank you Johnwen! (If you ever get bored.. :) the average of the sodium ascorbate added to the last graph would be interesting)

So, this data (which any one can repeat) challenges the standard assertion that after 250 mg orally - there is a loss of availability of oral vitamin C.

At least in my case, the availability into the blood stream) for roughly 15 minutes (or almost 4,000 mg ascorbic acid orally) equals the bioavailability of intravenous vitamin C. (Where is the loss! :?: ) Perhaps some estimates need to be revised upwards!

Its possible that is is roughly equivalent past minute 25 (or 6000 mg orally). We'd have to run several times to check.

After 6000 mg, in this experiment there was an apparent drop off (and I did experience bowel tolerance)
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#66  Post by Johnwen » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:08 pm

Here’s the average of the three readings.
SA & AA & IV :)

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#67  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:51 am

Super interesting as viewed in the last graph - no matter what the measurement error or units.

In me personally :o

#1. As we also observed in the initial crude measurements, sodium ascorbate readings are much lower than ascorbic acid over this testing interval.

    A. Any measurement using sodium ascorbate form of vitamin C would apparently show much lower bioavailability. (Perhaps it is absorbed into the blood later?)

    B. Trying to raise blood levels using sodium ascorbate to those of an IV is probably impossible.

    C. The sodium ascorbate numbers seem to disprove the "dissolved in water" idea, i.e.,that perhaps that the reason ascorbic acid peaks so early is that some of it travels with water into the blood stream. If this were the explanation, why would sodium ascorbate be any different?

#2 Ascorbic Acid taken orally is at least as bioavailable as Intravenous Sodium Ascorbate for up to 4000 mg.

#3 Ascorbic Acid taken in one large quantity can raise blood levels to those of an IV/C for about 10-15 minutes.
    A - the Ascorbic Acid reading peeks in the first few minutes! I believe this is new. Any bioavailability measurement of ascorbic acid that doesn't measure the blood at minute 2 or 3, out to at least 20 minutes, has missed most of the "bio availability" effect
.


Hickey in the Hickey/Saul book Vitamin C The Real Story on page 45 reviews the Mark Levine (NIH) study of 6 men.. So these are the NIH's numbers, not Hickeys,

Almost all of a low dose, below about 60 mg, is absorbed. The absolute amount absorbed increases with dose, but only slowly: up to 80-90 percent of a single 180 mg dose is absorbed.

reducing to 75 percent up to 1 gram

50 percent at 1.5 grams,

26 percent at 6 grams,

and 16 percent at 12 grams. Only 2 grams of a single 12-gram dose would be absorbed, providing a limit to the intake possible from a single dose.



Something is fishy in river city. Perhaps these numbers are low because sodium ascorbate was given, or most probably they are low because the initial effect into the blood stream was missed.

Certainly the idea that only 50% of 1.5 grams (our minute 6) is absorbed can be proven false by these experiments.

I think we will be able to make a case that up to 4000 mg of ascorbic acid is 100% absorbed.
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#68  Post by OxC » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:30 pm

ofonorow wrote:

Code: Select all

Baseline.

B   112

water

A  131
B  125
C  127

Just curious about these baseline measurements, particularly the ones listed under the heading "water." It has been reported that simply drinking water can affect epinephrine and norepinephrine levels "Drinking water and non-alcoholic cold liquids caused a marked fall in plasma adrenaline and a transient rise in noradrenaline concentration" and Wiki states that "Norepinephrine also underlies the fight-or-flight response, along with epinephrine, directly increasing heart rate, triggering the release of glucose from energy stores, and increasing blood flow to skeletal muscle". I was wondering if you were trying to evaluate this effect? Do these values represent your plasma glucose before and after drinking plain water?
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#69  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:29 pm

Early on, during he crude measurements, johnwen suggested a glass of water in between baseline measurements, (perhaps he was thinking of the same reasons that are mentioned in your links.) Our routine has been to take a measurement, drink 8 ounces of water, and wait five minutes. Then take another set of baseline measurements. Usually the baseline readings are not very far apart, but in this case I suspect that first measurement may have been too low. (We have noticed that different meters can measure the same blood differently, up to 5, sometimes even 10 points The different test strips can also change the readings by 5 to 10 points. This is one reason we call these measurements crude, and why we are now using 3 meters.

I do realize that one thing I should do as a control is either take 1 ounce of water every minute or gulp 10 ounces of water, and measure the blood for 40 minutes. That is a lot of pricks just to prove the meter will flatline from just drinking water.

We could consider the sodium ascorbate as a potential control - given how little the blood reacted to the same amount of water as the ascorbic acid gulp.
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#70  Post by ofonorow » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:18 am

Steve Hickey wrote:Hi Owen,

What is the response to an oral dose of glucose?

What do you mean by sodium ascorbate measuring lower?

Do the measurements work in physiological saline (salt water)?

You may have found out something very interesting but it is difficult to be sure. For example, you might be measuring a rapid blood glucose response to an oral dose. Unlikely, but I'm sure you see the issues.

The way to proceed is to keep making different measurements and checking for consistency.

Ask what other things might be causing the change in values and try to eliminate them.

You must be having fun with this.

Steve
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#71  Post by ofonorow » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:26 am

Hi Owen,

What is the response to an oral dose of glucose?


Glucose will be the next experiment, and then a tall glass of water (to make sure it flat lines for the 40 minutes)​


What do you mean by sodium ascorbate measuring lower?



​In our experiments so far, ascorbic acid blood levels spike high starting at minutes 1 and 2 and stay high for about 15 minutes.

Taking the same amount of sodium ascorbate, also in one gulp, produces no such spike.


​This graph compares the gulp of 10 grams ascorbic acid (ultra fine powder) with the 10 gram IV/C (Darker lines) ​


Image

​This is the graph of a gulp of 11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate.

Image

​ We noticed this before - that according to these measurements ascorbic acid enters the blood much more rapidly, almost immediately.​

​Then I consumed 250 mg of ascorbic acid orally every minute for 40 minutes - to compare against IV. (The blue line in this graph is the sodium ascorbate gulp)


Image

​IV is the dark line, the ascorbate acid every minute is above it, and the blue is the sodium ascorbate gulp .

This illustrates that at least in one case - me - the meter has the same reaction out to 4000 mg orally as when I take vitamin C by vein.



Do the measurements work in physiological saline (salt water)?



​Do you mean have we tried to create pseudo-blood​ ​ and take measurements at different concentrations of vitamin C? Not yet, but in our plans.

You may have found out something very interesting but it is difficult to be sure. For example, you might be measuring a rapid blood glucose response to an oral dose. Unlikely, but I'm sure you see the issues.



​Yes, but what about the comparison between this "response"​ ​(what ever it is) for IV/C and oral vitamin C as ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate? Anyone can repeat these experiments. Why would ascorbic acid spike glucose in the first minute, but sodium ascorbate doesn't?

I think if this holds water, then it means that any "bioavailability" measure that doesn't monitor what is going on in the first fifteen minutes has missed the boat.



The way to proceed is to keep making different measurements and checking for consistency.



​Thank you. We will. (So far, the oral measures match our first crude tries - but at that time we were measuring
with one (sometimes 2) meters every 5 minutes, rather than every minute as we are now.​



Ask what other things might be causing the change in values and try to eliminate them.



​Glucose next. Probably a gulp of a large glass of water. (I also want to look at 10 grams liposomal because we never were able to measure it - but we gave up too soon (we now know after seeing your charts).​



You must be having fun with this.
Except for the number of holes that have been pricked into my fingers :-)
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#72  Post by ofonorow » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:29 am

Google says "dextrose" and "glucose" are the same thing... correct?
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OxC
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#73  Post by OxC » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:00 am

ofonorow wrote:Google says "dextrose" and "glucose" are the same thing... correct?

Yes. If you're looking for a local source, stores that supply beer-brewing supplies usually carry dextrose for "priming sugar."
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

ofonorow
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#74  Post by ofonorow » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:39 am

Thank you. Aparently Dextrose is D-glucose, (L-glucose is possible but the D-form is the only biologically active form of glucose.) I remember learning this a long time ago, and it is interesting that D-glucose and L-ascorbate are the active forms.

We now have "pure" dextrose powder and to save my fingers, will probably start by trying to calibrate my meters.
Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

ofonorow
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#75  Post by ofonorow » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:05 am

I started the calibration, but it some ways this was harder than measuring my blood.

Please check my math.

1 Liter = 10 Deciliter, ergo a deciliter equals 100 grams of water (1 deciliter).

The salt (NA) concentration of the blood is 320 mg/dl. (According to wikipedia.org)

My scale reads 0.00 grams (hundredths) so 10 mg would be 0.01

I put 320 mg (0.32) of table salt into the 100 grams of water (to simulate the salt in the blood)

I put 80 mg of dextrose (or thought I did, but I may have put 0.80 instead of 0.08 the first time.)

I used a microwave to heat to body temperature, but I overshot, and while waiting for the mixture to cool, I took measurements using old test strips. (This experiment at least illustrated why reusing the test scripts is apparently way off - low).

Run 1. (This is invalid because I believe the concentration was 800 mg/dl not 80 mg/dl)

Meter A.

Used test strips 139, 146, 128, 119

New test strips 405, 411 ?

Meter B

Used test strips 92, 34, 111, 136

New Test strip 489 (Made me realize my probable error)

I started over, 100 grams of water, 320 mg of table salt and 80 mg of dextrose (this time 0.08 grams)

New Test Strips

Meter A. Err
Meter B. Err
Meter C. Err.

I had been using a knife to stir the solution and then taking the reading off the knife. This now causes a consistent err (err 3?).

So I dipped my finger in the solution so taking the reading was closer to "reality" taking blood off my finger.

All new test strips

Meter A 118
Meter B 109
Meter C 127 (note the variation!)

Then I (attempted) to add 10 mg of Dextrose (to simulate 90 mg/dl)

Meter A 128
Meter B 134
Meter C 125

I had planned to keep increasing by 10 mg and measure, but the variation in the readings makes me think this to be a waste of time. It did show the majority of the meters registered a higher reading in proportion to the glucose added.

I decided to jump by another 100 mg (0.10) and did another set of readings (Dextrose) Solution hould be 190-200 mg/dl

Meter A 194
Meter B 200
Meter C 170

The meters readings did increase, not perfectly but my measurements of the amounts were crude.

Rather than start over, I now had a simulation of blood (w/saline, high temp) with 200 mg/dl of dextrose and we added 150 mg of ultrafine ascorbic acid ( 0.15 on the scale.)

Meter A 399
Meter B 368
Meter C 350

We were using up test strips left and right ( and now we know that we cannot trust used strips at all) we decided to pause for comments from the forum.

Notes.

1. Meters are measuring glucose, but we are surprised by the variation. (If I only used meter C apparently, for my own blood, I'd make me endocrinologist happy. Meter C seems to read sugars significantly lower than the other meters. )

2. Adding more glucose makes the average reading increase about as expected.

3. Adding 150 mg of ascorbic acid caused the readers to report even more than 150 mg/dl.

Code: Select all

   About 200 Dextrose          200 Dextrose + 150 AA             (difference)
A     194                               399                            205
B     200                               368                            168
C     170                               350                            180


The average difference in the reading is 184 for the 150 mg of Ascorbic Acid added to the solution. (Given that the meter thinks it is reading glucose, a larger molecule the larger number is reasonable.)

Conclusion: These meters can and probably are measuring ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in the blood.

I am looking for suggestions. I may do the same thing with only ascorbate in the solution - to help calibrate, but the great variation in the meter readings makes me wonder what value there is in this? The point has been made that these meters can measure ascorbic acid in a solution that approximates the blood.




Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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