Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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lolex
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Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#1  Post by lolex » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:51 pm

Hi Everyone, and Respect to Owen and the Good Doctor,

I’ve been following the Pauling Protocol religiously for four years, now. With what I think are good results (I’m still here, and healthy.)
The science referred to below is new, I think. I did a search of the Forum but found no reference.

If this science is ‘correct’, it probably calls for a rethink of the Pauling VC dosing regimes (quantities per diem).

Over to you for thought and discussion. (Please click the link and read the Article.)


This recent research published in “Cell” and discussed in Science Direct. The study appears to explain how humans, along with other higher primates, guinea pigs and fruit bats, manage to live relatively long lives with what some have called an "inborn metabolic error": an inability to produce vitamin C from glucose.

The article is here https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 120726.htm

Unlike the more than 4,000 other species of mammals who manufacture vitamin C, and lots of it, the red blood cells of the handful of vitamin C-defective species are specially equipped to suck up the vitamin's oxidized form L-dehydroascorbic acid (DHA). Once inside the blood cells, that DHA-- is immediately transformed back into ascorbic acid (a.k.a. vitamin C)--can be efficiently carried through the bloodstream to the rest of the body, the research suggests.

"[Through evolution], we've created this system that takes out the oxidized form of vitamin C and transports the essential, antioxidant form."
They made a surprising discovery: The Glut1 on human red blood cells strongly favors DHA over glucose. In fact, the human blood cells are known to carry more Glut1 than any other cell type, harboring more than 200,000 molecules on the surface of every cell. Once inside the blood cells, that DHA-- is immediately transformed back into ascorbic acid (a.k.a. vitamin C)—that can be efficiently carried through the bloodstream to the rest of the body, the researchers suggest.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:36 am

lolex wrote:I’ve been following the Pauling Protocol religiously for four years, now. With what I think are good results (I’m still here, and healthy.)


I think if one takes Pauling's therapy with good health the good results might not be as impressive, as when taking in really bad health with little more to loose, and experiencing remission.

But even aside the immediate effects of a high dose ascorbic acid has for example against my rhinitis symptoms - as good as any prescription antihistamine without side-effects - the math of these petri-dish results also don't add up to the same as when endogenously produced without that red-blood cell's ability:

The recommended daily dose of vitamin C for humans is just one mg/kg, while goats, for example, produce the vitamin at a striking rate of 200 mg/kg each day.
...

Moreover, they report, although DHA uptake in human and magot red cells was similar, the level of transport in cells from three different lemur species was less than 10% of that detected in higher primates.


Roughly comparing pears and apples, how could a 10-times increase of red-cell ability could ever substitute a 200-times higher exogenous need?? - Which again is astronomically much, much higher when ill..


These red-cell's ability do however explain, how in vitamin C deficiency the available get's recycled again and again, creating a vitamin C body stores half-life of as long as up to 30 days. While in mega-dosing down to 1/2 an hour.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:35 am

Just pondering about it, normal serum levels in humans for vitamin C from my lab is 5-15 mg/L. Many with conditions, alcoholics or cigarette smokers would show even below 'normal'. Considering the mean of 10 mg/L by in average 5 liters of blood in a human, that would amount to an average of 50 mg of vitamin C contained in the whole serum of a human.

According to one study high-dose vitamin users who took 20 g of oral ascorbic acid throughout the day would reach a serum level of about 90 mg/dl (calculated from µmol/L), or about 450 mg total in serum. Therefore, the ten-fold theoretical increase of uptake in red-cells would compensate. But add any medical conditions to this and it's again a loosing battle without continuous high oral doses.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#4  Post by zarfas » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:59 pm

Id think the first thing to do before changing something would be establish what it is we are wanting to change
so we all can be clear

what is Paulings therapy and what does it need to be changed to?
then why should it be changed

On a different forum, I get resistance to Pauling/10grams vit C , as they say I only need 1 gram or less because of recyling:
pamojja wrote:These red-cell's ability do however explain, how in vitamin C deficiency the available get's recycled again and again, creating a vitamin C body stores half-life of as long as up to 30 days. While in mega-dosing down to 1/2 an hour.

which I dont understand well,
If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neurtailize an antioxidant, then can it be recyled?

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#5  Post by pamojja » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:18 am

zarfas wrote:
pamojja wrote:These red-cell's ability do however explain, how in vitamin C deficiency the available get's recycled again and again, creating a vitamin C body stores half-life of as long as up to 30 days. While in mega-dosing down to 1/2 an hour.

which I dont understand well,
If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neurtailize an antioxidant, then can it be recyled?


Think the best theory to explain how nutrients in deficiency get first allotted to life-saving bodily processes - in negligence of less urgent but nevertheless causing chronic symptoms later in life - is the triage theory by Bruce Ames, as example for vitamin K:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19692494

The body needs some absolute minimum to survive now, and spares it stringently to not be used up by less urgent needs. For example by not allotting enough for collagen repair in arteries, as Pauling posited. Causing chronic issues years later on.

It just will not make collagen or neutralize antioxidants enough, for ensuring the most urgent functions to survive for at least today are maintained.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#6  Post by zarfas » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:00 pm

pamojja wrote:
zarfas wrote:
pamojja wrote:These red-cell's ability do however explain, how in vitamin C deficiency the available get's recycled again and again, creating a vitamin C body stores half-life of as long as up to 30 days. While in mega-dosing down to 1/2 an hour.

which I dont understand well,
If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neurtailize an antioxidant, then can it be recyled?


Think the best theory to explain how nutrients in deficiency get first allotted to life-saving bodily processes - in negligence of less urgent but nevertheless causing chronic symptoms later in life - is the triage theory by Bruce Ames, as example for vitamin K:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19692494

The body needs some absolute minimum to survive now, and spares it stringently to not be used up by less urgent needs. For example by not allotting enough for collagen repair in arteries, as Pauling posited. Causing chronic issues years later on.

It just will not make collagen or neutralize antioxidants enough, for ensuring the most urgent functions to survive for at least today are maintained.

that's not answering what i asked, maybe I asked it wrong?
so once the vit C gets used, it can be recycled?

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#7  Post by samarkand » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:46 pm

How are people on the 'all meat' diet managing without Vit C?

They appear to be doing OK now, but will they suffer in years to come?

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#8  Post by zarfas » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:30 am

Isnt there SOME vit C in meat?
but cooked meat? I dunno

maybe they eat veggies?
heart disease takes years, right? so they arent doing "ok", they are slowly dying from plaque build up or cancer growth

here dr Mcdougal talks about diet and cancer/fat intake from animal sources and vegetable oil
"9:08 shows animal fat doesnt grow cancer well but animal/vegetable oil(ie olive oil) promote cancer
10:50 shows natural growh of cancer from 1 cell to 1cm takes ~10yrs

the rate of how fast/slow it grows depends on diet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyRuDpqYuvY


then the vit C in veggies is great, but so is the nitrates to help control BP/cancer etc
Food sources of nitrates and nitrites: the physiologic context for potential health benefits
The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Volume 90, Issue 1, 1 July 2009,
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/90/1/1/4596750

Ive posted this stuff before, but like vit C /lysine/proline is the key to fighting heart disease..
what you eat is the key to lots of other health issues

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#9  Post by samarkand » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:30 pm

zarfas - many thanks for your reply and link.

Organ meat has a small amount Vit C, but I don't believe there is any in a steak.

I am personally taking Ascorcine9 - 2 scoops morning and night. Plus in between I take 1 tablespoon Liposomal C 3 times per day. That amounts to about 8000+mg - haven't managed to reach bowel tolerance - should I increase? (FYI I'm 62kg Age 72).
Hoping to reverse some blockages and will keep at it. (26 months completed).

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#10  Post by pamojja » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:42 am

zarfas wrote:
pamojja wrote:
zarfas wrote:If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neurtailize an antioxidant, then can it be recyled?


The body needs some absolute minimum to survive now, and spares it stringently to not be used up by less urgent needs. ..

It just will not make collagen or neutralize antioxidants enough, for ensuring the most urgent functions to survive for at least today are maintained.


that's not answering what i asked, maybe I asked it wrong?
so once the vit C gets used, it can be recycled?


As the long half-life in serum of up to 30 days with little vitamin shows. Yes it can be recycled - but only at such low amounts.

It can't recycle large amounts - as again the short half-life of only half an hour with a large vitamin C intake shows.

Therefore, due to the recycling at low amounts the body can maintain the same low serum levels easily. For therapeutically more active high serum levels the intake has to be continuously high.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#11  Post by zarfas » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:03 am

pamojja wrote:
Therefore, due to the recycling at low amounts the body can maintain the same low serum levels easily. For therapeutically more active high serum levels the intake has to be continuously high.

ok so it can be recyled, but for the use we want it for, to make collagen, won't be very effective.

now this next question is more complex to me, maybe you can dumb it down for me.

so If I smoked cigarettes, they both make and contain free radicals(free radicals being atom(s) that have unpaired electrons) so vit C is a bag of electron(since it easily donates electrons to needy free radicals.)


so if you smoke, you should always do so with taking vit C, to at least quench some of the free radicals made/present, otherwise any vit C you have will get used up.
so if you smoke and have no vit C, then what happens?
the free radicals present in the cigarettes and made, attack the body/dna causing damage?

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#12  Post by lolex » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm

" so if you smoke, you should always do so with taking vit C, to at least quench some of the free radicals made/present, otherwise any vit C you have will get used up.

So if you smoke and have no vit C, then what happens?""

............You end up dead or with a by-pass, like I did.

(Late Learner !)

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#13  Post by zarfas » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:03 pm

lolex wrote:"
............You end up dead or with a by-pass, like I did.

glad you are learning
my friend smokes about 1 pack a day, he is 26, low BMI(under 25), I take vit C and he only takes some IF he is sick
he missed a week of work(smoking makes illness last longer) and I offered him lipo vit C and tried it and said it was "gross"
this from a guy who smokes tar/free radicals/nicotine multi times/day

my other friend is 32 women, 1 child, she smokes at least 1 pack a day and is BMI 34(obese) and is now on FMLA to seek out why she is having GI issues
no vit C either

my coworker is 70, low BMI(under 25) and smokes 1 pack a day for 40 yrs and is fine, no chronic or acute health issues

if you are gonna smoke, take vit C
BE UNDER BMI 25

smoking increases DA in the brain, makes you NOT hungery
if you are fat and smoke, there is something else wrong with your brain(my opinion)

under bmi survey and all causes of mortality

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530540

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#14  Post by OxC » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 pm

zarfas wrote:If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neutralize an antioxidant, then can it be recycled?
…that's not answering what i asked, maybe I asked it wrong? so once the vit C gets used, it can be recycled?

When a molecule of vit C gets “used,” that means it gave up its electrons to another molecule (e.g., to an enzyme that used the electrons in making collagen, or to an oxidant that got neutralized by gaining electrons). When it gave up those electrons, it became “oxidized.” To be “recycled” means that it re-acquired those electrons (the “oxidized” form got “reduced”). The body has a lot of mechanisms to recycle (reduce) oxidized vit C, and it occurs in a lot of different tissues and cells, not just in the red blood cells. Cells called glia in the brain are examples of another type of cell that is known to be very active in recycling vit C, as are most white blood cells. In fact, most cell types can recycle vit C. So the answer to your question is yes.
pamojja wrote:As the long half-life in serum of up to 30 days with little vitamin shows. Yes it can be recycled - but only at such low amounts.
It can't recycle large amounts - as again the short half-life of only half an hour with a large vitamin C intake shows.

After a large intake of vitamin C (or even what many would call a moderate intake, of say 250 mg), it is actively absorbed in the small intestine and the amount in the bloodstream increases. The blood level rises above the “renal threshold,” and so vitamin C begins to be excreted through the kidneys. In just a few hours most of it is found in the urine. This is the explanation for the short half-life in the serum. This short existence in the bloodstream apparently has almost nothing to do with recycling. All the scientific evidence I’ve seen indicates that the vast majority of the vitamin C that was absorbed and then excreted was in the reduced form as ascorbate, was not ever oxidized, and therefore never needed to be recycled. Thus the short half-life in this situation gives little if any information as to the body’s capacity to recycle oxidized vitamin C back to AA.

Other evidence, however, including the small amounts required for survival, and the long periods that people can exist without any in their diet, suggests the body has a very great capacity for recycling, and that molecules that get “used” not only can be recycled but probably most often are. Nevertheless, some molecules get “broken” so there is at least a small but continuous loss of vitamin C from the body.
pamojja wrote:For therapeutically more active high serum levels the intake has to be continuously high.

Intake needs to be continuously high to sustain blood levels above the renal threshold because of the continuous loss of vitamin C in the urine. "Continuously high" is a pretty subjective phrase. It appears that in oral dosing of vitamin C to maintain “therapeutic” levels, “continuously” is a lot more frequent than many people think, and “high” is a lot lower than many think.
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#15  Post by pamojja » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:41 am

OxC wrote:, and “high” is a lot lower than many think.


Going by serum levels reached by the only study which measured it, 20 g taken throughout the day will in most cases suffice:

http://vitamincfoundation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52923&sid=df844b8bc305da557c0cf9f391cd91c6#p52923 Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake.


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