Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#1  Post by lolex » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:51 pm

Hi Everyone, and Respect to Owen and the Good Doctor,

I’ve been following the Pauling Protocol religiously for four years, now. With what I think are good results (I’m still here, and healthy.)
The science referred to below is new, I think. I did a search of the Forum but found no reference.

If this science is ‘correct’, it probably calls for a rethink of the Pauling VC dosing regimes (quantities per diem).

Over to you for thought and discussion. (Please click the link and read the Article.)


This recent research published in “Cell” and discussed in Science Direct. The study appears to explain how humans, along with other higher primates, guinea pigs and fruit bats, manage to live relatively long lives with what some have called an "inborn metabolic error": an inability to produce vitamin C from glucose.

The article is here https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 120726.htm

Unlike the more than 4,000 other species of mammals who manufacture vitamin C, and lots of it, the red blood cells of the handful of vitamin C-defective species are specially equipped to suck up the vitamin's oxidized form L-dehydroascorbic acid (DHA). Once inside the blood cells, that DHA-- is immediately transformed back into ascorbic acid (a.k.a. vitamin C)--can be efficiently carried through the bloodstream to the rest of the body, the research suggests.

"[Through evolution], we've created this system that takes out the oxidized form of vitamin C and transports the essential, antioxidant form."
They made a surprising discovery: The Glut1 on human red blood cells strongly favors DHA over glucose. In fact, the human blood cells are known to carry more Glut1 than any other cell type, harboring more than 200,000 molecules on the surface of every cell. Once inside the blood cells, that DHA-- is immediately transformed back into ascorbic acid (a.k.a. vitamin C)—that can be efficiently carried through the bloodstream to the rest of the body, the researchers suggest.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:36 am

lolex wrote:I’ve been following the Pauling Protocol religiously for four years, now. With what I think are good results (I’m still here, and healthy.)


I think if one takes Pauling's therapy with good health the good results might not be as impressive, as when taking in really bad health with little more to loose, and experiencing remission.

But even aside the immediate effects of a high dose ascorbic acid has for example against my rhinitis symptoms - as good as any prescription antihistamine without side-effects - the math of these petri-dish results also don't add up to the same as when endogenously produced without that red-blood cell's ability:

The recommended daily dose of vitamin C for humans is just one mg/kg, while goats, for example, produce the vitamin at a striking rate of 200 mg/kg each day.
...

Moreover, they report, although DHA uptake in human and magot red cells was similar, the level of transport in cells from three different lemur species was less than 10% of that detected in higher primates.


Roughly comparing pears and apples, how could a 10-times increase of red-cell ability could ever substitute a 200-times higher exogenous need?? - Which again is astronomically much, much higher when ill..


These red-cell's ability do however explain, how in vitamin C deficiency the available get's recycled again and again, creating a vitamin C body stores half-life of as long as up to 30 days. While in mega-dosing down to 1/2 an hour.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:35 am

Just pondering about it, normal serum levels in humans for vitamin C from my lab is 5-15 mg/L. Many with conditions, alcoholics or cigarette smokers would show even below 'normal'. Considering the mean of 10 mg/L by in average 5 liters of blood in a human, that would amount to an average of 50 mg of vitamin C contained in the whole serum of a human.

According to one study high-dose vitamin users who took 20 g of oral ascorbic acid throughout the day would reach a serum level of about 90 mg/dl (calculated from µmol/L), or about 450 mg total in serum. Therefore, the ten-fold theoretical increase of uptake in red-cells would compensate. But add any medical conditions to this and it's again a loosing battle without continuous high oral doses.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#4  Post by pamojja » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:18 am

zarfas wrote:
pamojja wrote:These red-cell's ability do however explain, how in vitamin C deficiency the available get's recycled again and again, creating a vitamin C body stores half-life of as long as up to 30 days. While in mega-dosing down to 1/2 an hour.

which I dont understand well,
If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neurtailize an antioxidant, then can it be recyled?


Think the best theory to explain how nutrients in deficiency get first allotted to life-saving bodily processes - in negligence of less urgent but nevertheless causing chronic symptoms later in life - is the triage theory by Bruce Ames, as example for vitamin K:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19692494

The body needs some absolute minimum to survive now, and spares it stringently to not be used up by less urgent needs. For example by not allotting enough for collagen repair in arteries, as Pauling posited. Causing chronic issues years later on.

It just will not make collagen or neutralize antioxidants enough, for ensuring the most urgent functions to survive for at least today are maintained.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#5  Post by samarkand » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:46 pm

How are people on the 'all meat' diet managing without Vit C?

They appear to be doing OK now, but will they suffer in years to come?

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#6  Post by samarkand » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:30 pm

zarfas - many thanks for your reply and link.

Organ meat has a small amount Vit C, but I don't believe there is any in a steak.

I am personally taking Ascorcine9 - 2 scoops morning and night. Plus in between I take 1 tablespoon Liposomal C 3 times per day. That amounts to about 8000+mg - haven't managed to reach bowel tolerance - should I increase? (FYI I'm 62kg Age 72).
Hoping to reverse some blockages and will keep at it. (26 months completed).

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:42 am

zarfas wrote:
pamojja wrote:
zarfas wrote:If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neurtailize an antioxidant, then can it be recyled?


The body needs some absolute minimum to survive now, and spares it stringently to not be used up by less urgent needs. ..

It just will not make collagen or neutralize antioxidants enough, for ensuring the most urgent functions to survive for at least today are maintained.


that's not answering what i asked, maybe I asked it wrong?
so once the vit C gets used, it can be recycled?


As the long half-life in serum of up to 30 days with little vitamin shows. Yes it can be recycled - but only at such low amounts.

It can't recycle large amounts - as again the short half-life of only half an hour with a large vitamin C intake shows.

Therefore, due to the recycling at low amounts the body can maintain the same low serum levels easily. For therapeutically more active high serum levels the intake has to be continuously high.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#8  Post by lolex » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm

" so if you smoke, you should always do so with taking vit C, to at least quench some of the free radicals made/present, otherwise any vit C you have will get used up.

So if you smoke and have no vit C, then what happens?""

............You end up dead or with a by-pass, like I did.

(Late Learner !)

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#9  Post by OxC » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 pm

zarfas wrote:If vit C gets used to make collagen or to neutralize an antioxidant, then can it be recycled?
…that's not answering what i asked, maybe I asked it wrong? so once the vit C gets used, it can be recycled?

When a molecule of vit C gets “used,” that means it gave up its electrons to another molecule (e.g., to an enzyme that used the electrons in making collagen, or to an oxidant that got neutralized by gaining electrons). When it gave up those electrons, it became “oxidized.” To be “recycled” means that it re-acquired those electrons (the “oxidized” form got “reduced”). The body has a lot of mechanisms to recycle (reduce) oxidized vit C, and it occurs in a lot of different tissues and cells, not just in the red blood cells. Cells called glia in the brain are examples of another type of cell that is known to be very active in recycling vit C, as are most white blood cells. In fact, most cell types can recycle vit C. So the answer to your question is yes.
pamojja wrote:As the long half-life in serum of up to 30 days with little vitamin shows. Yes it can be recycled - but only at such low amounts.
It can't recycle large amounts - as again the short half-life of only half an hour with a large vitamin C intake shows.

After a large intake of vitamin C (or even what many would call a moderate intake, of say 250 mg), it is actively absorbed in the small intestine and the amount in the bloodstream increases. The blood level rises above the “renal threshold,” and so vitamin C begins to be excreted through the kidneys. In just a few hours most of it is found in the urine. This is the explanation for the short half-life in the serum. This short existence in the bloodstream apparently has almost nothing to do with recycling. All the scientific evidence I’ve seen indicates that the vast majority of the vitamin C that was absorbed and then excreted was in the reduced form as ascorbate, was not ever oxidized, and therefore never needed to be recycled. Thus the short half-life in this situation gives little if any information as to the body’s capacity to recycle oxidized vitamin C back to AA.

Other evidence, however, including the small amounts required for survival, and the long periods that people can exist without any in their diet, suggests the body has a very great capacity for recycling, and that molecules that get “used” not only can be recycled but probably most often are. Nevertheless, some molecules get “broken” so there is at least a small but continuous loss of vitamin C from the body.
pamojja wrote:For therapeutically more active high serum levels the intake has to be continuously high.

Intake needs to be continuously high to sustain blood levels above the renal threshold because of the continuous loss of vitamin C in the urine. "Continuously high" is a pretty subjective phrase. It appears that in oral dosing of vitamin C to maintain “therapeutic” levels, “continuously” is a lot more frequent than many people think, and “high” is a lot lower than many think.
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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#10  Post by pamojja » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:41 am

OxC wrote:, and “high” is a lot lower than many think.


Going by serum levels reached by the only study which measured it, 20 g taken throughout the day will in most cases suffice:

http://vitamincfoundation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52923&sid=df844b8bc305da557c0cf9f391cd91c6#p52923 Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#11  Post by OxC » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:23 pm

zarfas wrote:so why does PT need such high amounts of vit C since vit C can be recycled?

“Pauling Therapy” (at least as originally suggested by Pauling) involves taking vitamin C and lysine for the specific purposes of lowering Lp(a) plasma levels and interfering with Lp(a) binding to tissues in the arterial wall. In theory, vit C and lysine might accomplish these things. Pauling admitted that his recommendation was theoretical and not based on clinical evidence. So far as I know, clinical evidence that vit C lowers Lp(a) plasma levels significantly, or that lysine interferes with Lp(a) binding to the arteries is still lacking. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, but talking about what doses are required isn’t something I can help with. But it is interesting to note that Pauling DID describe how he came up with the doses he suggested. He said that he pretty much picked a lysine dose of 5 grams out of the air, and remarkably that exact dose was found, by the one colleague to whom he suggested it, to eliminate that colleague’s fatigue and angina. He said that the vit C dose was based on his long-standing belief that what is optimal for humans is the amount estimated to be produced by other mammals. I can’t help with PT, but I might be able to offer some insight into these estimates of the amounts produced by other mammals.
zarfas wrote:yeah, i understand OIL rig, etc :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I think scientific concepts can often be more easily understood with analogies to common things. So I struggled to come up with an analogy involving oil rigs! I wasn’t successful. However, most people know a lot about cars and trucks, so let me try an analogy in that vein:

Imagine that you were trying to estimate the total number of miles all the vehicles in the world travel every day. And the data you had at hand indicated that a vehicle can travel at a rate of 100 mph, and that the amount of vehicles in the world is 100 million. And that otherwise, you really didn’t have much knowledge about the way vehicles are really used in the real world. Since 100 million vehicles going 100 mph, 24 hours per day, would accumulate 240 trillion miles, you might conclude that that’s a good estimate. But every car isn’t on the road 24 hours a day, and if they were, the highways would be so clogged that they surely wouldn’t be going 100 mph! Not to mention the serious question as to just how long the available stores of gasoline would last. And you can easily conceive of dozens of other reasons as to why the estimate of 240 trillion miles would be wildly wrong, including regulators such as traffic cops.

Now, returning to Pauling and the estimates he refers to regarding how much vitamin C a typical mammal produces. These estimates were based on the rate of the final enzyme in the biochemical synthesis pathway of vitamin C, and the amount of that enzyme available in the liver of these animals. They include assumptions, such as that this enzyme is actively producing vitamin C 24 hours per day, that there is no limit to the availability of its substrate or other necessary resources, and ignores the fact that such enzyme systems are highly regulated, in this case by mechanisms that remain unknown.

You can imagine why these estimates have been criticized by some scientists. I’ve seen a couple of other estimates of the production by various mammals. These were done by different methods, such as by measuring the amount found in their urine, or based on the levels found in their blood and various tissues. They seem to indicate that some mammals DO produce more than the human Recommended Daily Amount (adjusted by the weight of the animal) but not by nearly such a large factor as in the estimates that Pauling cited.

The enzyme rates for these estimates appear to have been extracted from this reference: Gillespie DS. Overview of species needing dietary vitamin C. The Journal of Zoo Animal Medicine 11(3) (1980), pp. 88-91. This reference I have in my files, but it doesn’t appear to be freely available online, so I haven’t provided a link. But if you could read it, you would see that the highest rate among the 11 mammals tested was from a goat. This might explain why you so frequently see claims of how a goat produces X grams per day (usually X is something between 10 and 15). It’s also convenient that goats and humans are approximately similar in size. But you would also see that both the cat and the dog had rates that were only 7% the rate of the goat. Applying the same calculations then, a dog the size of a goat or man might produce 0.7 - 1.1 g per day. Which mammal is most like a human?

Perhaps, taking into account that humans apparently have evolved improved recycling ability, the RDA amounts aren’t really that far from what might be considered “optimal,” at least for a normal, healthy human? Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that I think larger amounts (sometimes much larger amounts) aren’t ever desirable or don’t have remarkable therapeutic properties in some instances. And the fact is that a lot of people who think they get RDA amounts in their diet actually don’t, and will likely benefit from at least a small supplement every day.
Last edited by OxC on Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#12  Post by Ralph Lotz » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:39 pm

No, now is the time to IMPLEMENT the Pauling/Rath discoveries which were based on Patterson/Willis guinea pig studies. We now know about Ascorbate Pharmacokinetics, and have for over 13 years.
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/j ... 4-p237.pdf

There are zero consequences and zero toxicity with ascorbic acid usage unless you take more than bowel tolerance. ( Cathcart)
Cost is 2 cents a gram at vitacost.com ( Thompson Vitamin C Powder)

One should not confuse basic survival amounts for survival with adequate amounts required for optimal health.
(See Bruce Ames' Triage Theory)
Vitamin C recycling is glutathione dependent:
http://practicingmedicinewithoutalicens ... t_chp7.pdf

Numerous experts on the Vitamin C Foundation website have discussed in detail the reasons humans need more than enough ascorbate to prevent frank scurvy: Stone, Ely, Cathcart, Hickey, Sardi, Fonorow just to mention a few.
Lysine is one of the 9 essential amino acids, while proline is not classified as essential. While proline can be synthesized in the body, it may be conditionally essential.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compou ... ection=Top

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-top ... d-gelatin/

http://practicingmedicinewithoutalicens ... t_chp7.pdf

Critics of Pauling appear to be conspicuously short of an amendment to the Unified Theory.
The theory demands rigorous discussion and debate among scientists worldwide. The silence is deafening.
Linus Pauling was the greatest American scientist of the 20th Century, and some classify him as one of the top 20 scientists in recorded history.
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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#13  Post by Ralph Lotz » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:35 am

https://vitaminccures.com/blog/index.ph ... -american/

Simple: You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

How much vitamin C is required for optimum health?

HOW MUCH IS YOUR RDA?
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#14  Post by Jacquie » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:01 am

The answer is that not all or even enough of it is recycled for optimal health, only some of it.

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Re: Time to rethink the Pauling Dosing Regime??

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:07 am

I’ve been following the Pauling Protocol religiously for four years, now. With what I think are good results (I’m still here, and healthy.)
The science referred to below is new, I think. I did a search of the Forum but found no reference.

If this science is ‘correct’, it probably calls for a rethink of the Pauling VC dosing regimes (quantities per diem).


Glad you are still here.

Yes there have been evolutionary adaptions, but it is interesting that the life of a red blood cell is, what, 120 days?

When molecules become oxidized, e.g. vitamin C, gluathione, etc. they must be reduced to avoid turning into a 'free radical," meaning the electron they donated must be replaced... Usually vitamin E and C help recycle each other, glutathione and various enzymes reduces vitamin C, etc.

I am aware that DHA has vitamin C properties, and can better penetrate lipid barriers, and that the "antioxidant" property is less important than many think, else D- LD- DL- ascorbate would be as effective and important as L-ascorbate. However, these other sterio-isomers, with the same "antioxidant" property, do not have general vitamin C activity.

In any event, there are certain characteristics of DHA that make it hard to be used as ordinary vitamin C, not the least of which is the very short life in the blood stream. And all our experience since 1996 has been with ascorbic acid, the most common form of vitamin C.
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