Vitamin B3 ( Niacin) and type 2 diabetic

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

Moderator: ofonorow

exitium
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 597
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 am
Contact:

Re: Vitamin B3 ( Niacin) and type 2 diabetic

Post Number:#31  Post by exitium » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:52 am

blade wrote:Back to my dad:

but my dad also loves broccoli and eats 2-3lbs a day, so I doubt the issue is K.
My mom feeds him garlic, avacado and a few other things he wouldnt eat on his own.


Im a little skeptical that he eats 3 lbs a day but even if he did thats still only about 3900mg of potassium a day, still short by 1000mg.

blade wrote:His blood tests show no issues with his thyroid or any other issue.


Neither did mine but lugols and selenium had a huge positive impact on my afib and on thyroid function. 95% of the patience tested by a handful of docs who specialize in that area say are claimed to have suboptimal iodine levels.


blade wrote:Do you have a study that shows a man his mid 60s with symtoms of anything else, except high FBS/A1c and low T is made better by taking more vitamins? or by fixing his lack of nutrition?
if so, I'd jump on making him take more X, to fix his lowT/high a1c

Yet, I do show studies that show the issue is men his age have decreased testosterone, and that giving them TRT resolves his A1c/low T.


You do realize that most studies based on dealing with issue via nutritional supplementation are kept from the journals dont you? There are many reasons I suppose but basing your research solely on what you find in pub med will likely not lead to success.

Your also sort of missing the point im trying to get at which is, in my opinion more often the case than not, Low T is not in and of itself THE problem its just another symptom. Im not against TRT, just dont feel that its a solution to the problem, like most drugs in most scenarios it simply addresses a symptom.

blade

Re: Vitamin B3 ( Niacin) and type 2 diabetic

Post Number:#32  Post by blade » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:52 am

exitium wrote:Im a little skeptical that he eats 3 lbs a day but even if he did thats still only about 3900mg of potassium a day, still short by 1000mg.

Yeah, I figured that out also, but the other veggies my mom gets him to eat help close the gap
I will see if I can get him to take some potassium, but I can't even get him to take a little bit of avacado along with his veggies/ I've explained how avacado helps against prostate cancer AND the fat helps absorb more nutrients from food.

--oh i agree, how is that possible he easts up top 3lbs a day?
I eat 1-2lbs/day, but I can eat a pound in about 5 minutes using vitamix.
We both buy broccoli in bulk(sams club). My parents eat broccoli whenever they get hungry for a "snack". They use the 1lb mustard from Sams, but now they have me buy them mustards from my sams since theirs no longer carries them.
I try to get them to add pepper/tumeric to the mustard, but I dont know if they do that.
now back in 08, I was a home and I'd watch my dad eat his broccoli and slather on mustard and parmesan cheese!
I had to put a stop to that....(side note, what do you think about dairy in general? Im against it)

but when I go home, we eat dinner in about 30 minutes and I watch my dad eat 2lbs of broccoli with a fork, no cheese.
exitium wrote:Neither did mine but lugols and selenium had a huge positive impact on my afib and on thyroid function. 95% of the patience tested by a handful of docs who specialize in that area say are claimed to have suboptimal iodine levels.


I think you said that, but I am trying to get him to add some foods to get iodine/selenium to his diet.. I think shrimp would be ideal... http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... e&dbid=107

how did you determine that lugols/selenium had an impact on your a-fib? Having a concrete change would be very useful to keep him eating shrimp/and/or taking more pills/
exitium wrote:
You do realize that most studies based on dealing with issue via nutritional supplementation are kept from the journals dont you? There are many reasons I suppose but basing your research solely on what you find in pub med will likely not lead to success.

Your also sort of missing the point im trying to get at which is, in my opinion more often the case than not, Low T is not in and of itself THE problem its just another symptom. Im not against TRT, just dont feel that its a solution to the problem, like most drugs in most scenarios it simply addresses a symptom.
[/quote]
Im missing your point? how?
did you read what I wrote?
No, I understand you say lowT is a symptom. Recall I gave an example of myself where LowT was a symptom of obesity/too much bellyfat/armotase and I fixed that by simply losing fat.
and I also said that although my dad is not fat, he might be skinny fat, and have high bodyfat, thus causing both high Estradiol and lowT. I'm still figuring out how to get his bodyfat tested.

it seems you missed my point that I'm not rushing into TRT as an answer/quick fix, which is why guys have trouble on TRT, they want to pop a pill/inject drugs and be "fine".
why are you so sure TRT is not the answer?
Do men only have declining testosterone due to nutritional deficiencies?
Do men get gray hair due to nutritional deficiencies??

health takes effort, and I've worked over a few years to change my parents diet and get them healthy.
I'm all about TRT because:
1 his total T is 70% below normal
2 his estradiol is above normal
3 I am not seeing a solution and I've changed his eating, workou0ts, body weight and I'm almost out of ideas about what to do, yet my dad STIL has lowT, high A1c, high e2.
what is your solution:
to test and add in more foods for the chance something might be off, even though his labs are normal?
that's a lot of effort and time and I dunno my dad has that kinda time. He's at risk with high a1c, low T, high E2.....I've spent over 2 years getting everything else right with himmm what is your solution?

exitium
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 597
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 am
Contact:

Re: Vitamin B3 ( Niacin) and type 2 diabetic

Post Number:#33  Post by exitium » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:54 pm

blade wrote:how did you determine that lugols/selenium had an impact on your a-fib? Having a concrete change would be very useful to keep him eating shrimp/and/or taking more pills/


Well, because I used to have multiple episodes daily where I could feel my heart missing beats (easily verified by taking pulse) as well as times when it would race for no apparent reason. Now after over a year of supplementation it happens maybe once a week.

Additionally there are many other forums on the net where others have experienced similar positive changes in afib by adding supplements to diet.


blade wrote:I'm still figuring out how to get his bodyfat tested.


An ideal test is tough, especially for older folks. A skilled practitioner and a 21 point skin caliper is probably the best you will find short of hydro weighing but those folks can be hard to find. An easy fairly accurate test would be to see if anyone has a "bodpod" in your area. If you goto their website you can seach for places in your area that have them.

blade wrote:it seems you missed my point that I'm not rushing into TRT as an answer/quick fix, which is why guys have trouble on TRT, they want to pop a pill/inject drugs and be "fine".
why are you so sure TRT is not the answer?
Do men only have declining testosterone due to nutritional deficiencies?
Do men get gray hair due to nutritional deficiencies??

health takes effort, and I've worked over a few years to change my parents diet and get them healthy.
I'm all about TRT because:
1 his total T is 70% below normal
2 his estradiol is above normal
3 I am not seeing a solution and I've changed his eating, workou0ts, body weight and I'm almost out of ideas about what to do, yet my dad STIL has lowT, high A1c, high e2.
what is your solution:
to test and add in more foods for the chance something might be off, even though his labs are normal?
that's a lot of effort and time and I dunno my dad has that kinda time. He's at risk with high a1c, low T, high E2.....


There are a myriad of reasons why someone can have low T and while I dont think anyone can say without a shadow of a doubt they are all nutritionally related I would wager most of them will benefit to some degree from supplementation. This is where a lot of people seem to get hung up, they are looking for a smoking gun, they want to identify a single reason but that often detracts from finding a solution.

In a perfect world trying o get the nutrients we need from food would be the ideal solution the fact is with the food often comes a lot of toxins which destroy nutrients. Additionally due to the nutritional needs of some folks, for example those in early stages of arterial sclerosis, need say 6-10 grams of vit C per day. Its just not realistic to get that from food alone.

blade wrote:I've spent over 2 years getting everything else right with himmm what is your solution?



Symptoms arising from nutritional deficiencies can take months, years or even decades to manifest and likewise can take months or years to reverse. When I have worked with folks such as yourself I often encounter folks who claim "they have done everything" or "my diet is spot on". What I discover is there version of "spot on" is much different than mine.

For example, you said he doesnt supplement potassium, iodine or selenium. Now maybe your dad does get enough potassium from diet but its very likely he is iodine deficient. Personally I have been on 50mg a day for a year and a half. Japans average intake is around 12mg yet here in the US they say we only need 150mcg....no wonder we are a nation of fatties!

Additionally I have found the form of B vits many people use is inferior. What form of B12 is your father taking and how much? What about folate, niacin etc?

Ive been an avid lifter for almost 30 years now, I never took nutrition too seriously, at least not until my performance in the gym really started to suffer and I was diagnosed with afib. Sure I read thousands of pub med articles, many of which claimed this supplement or that one had no effect on this condition or that condition. But thats not where I stopped. One has to go back to the basics. What makes the body tick? Identify what happens within the organism when (insert name of any essential nutrient here) is withheld from the diet? Since this is the vit C forum we will use that. Pauling in his research and collaboration with other doctors have done a pretty good job of describing the role ascorbic acid plays in arterial health. While I have seen a lot of professionals in the medical community write off pauling therapy as a joke, I have never seen anyone effectively dispute the role ascorbic acid plays in arterial health or the process by which it functions. After all every doc on the planet will recognize and admit scurvy is real so why wont they admit that there are shades of grey between being 100% health and having scurvy?

Now your not going to find a bunch of articles in peer reviewed journals showing pauling therapy works so if thats your benchmark you very well could be condemning yourself to heart disease. At the same time however there are plenty of independent papers written by doctors that support pauling therapy and countless individual case studies and anecdotal claims from individuals around the globe that it works.

The above scenario in essence applies to every essential nutrient out there. There are shades of grey between 100% healthy and the point at which a clinical diagnosis of a deficiency will be made. The majority of the doctors out there do not seem to recognize the myriad of problems that can arise by being "in the grey area" nor do they seem to realize that a lab range applies to a population and only loosely applies to an individual. One example of this is the BMI(body mass index) that docs throw in your face nowadays. The BMI is a means to assess a population but when applied to the individual can be very misleading. For example according to the BMI, I am OBESE! If I alter the numbers I put into the BMI calculator, subtract the lbs of fat I am carrying from my overall weight and input that number number instead of my real weight (ie what I would weight if I had no bodyfat) and guess what???? Im still obese! How could someone with zero bodyfat be obese??

Carrying that example over to lab ranges for hormones, lets look at testosterone, normal, depending on lab, will vary a bit but is typically in the 300-1000 range. I think we can all agree that most of us would prefer test levels more at the high end than the low end BUT regardless of where we sit, most of the time if we are in that range we are considered fine and healthy. However MANY men with test near the low end of the range suffer a myriad of low T symptoms.

Long story longer using lab ranges, unless clearly outside, as the sole guide to ones health is often not an accurate means of judging health, especially if there are symptoms to the contrary. With that in mind, above you stated his thyroid labs are fine however you have also stated he has symptoms, either directly or indirectly, that link to thyroid function. Now we all have the choice to blindly follow the lab ranges and what the FDA says we need as nutrition or we can expand our boundaries based on our understanding of the role nutrients play in our health and supplement accordingly.

So whats my solution you ask? Its a well thought out and complete supplementation plan using proper forms or nutrients and from proper manufacturers. Not all supplements are created equal, even if consumer labs say the product meets label claims. For example I have tried half a dozen B12 sources and only 1 of them seems to be effective for me. If you think your plan is perfect and are running out of ideas as to what could be the problem then its time to go back and reevaluate your plan.

blade

Re: Vitamin B3 ( Niacin) and type 2 diabetic

Post Number:#34  Post by blade » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:09 pm

exitium wrote:
blade wrote:how did you determine that lugols/selenium had an impact on your a-fib? Having a concrete change would be very useful to keep him eating shrimp/and/or taking more pills/


Well, because I used to have multiple episodes daily where I could feel my heart missing beats (easily verified by taking pulse) as well as times when it would race for no apparent reason. Now after over a year of supplementation it happens maybe once a week.

that makes sense,,I had a similar experience with using "4 hour energy", and having an odd feeling going on, (my recent cardiologist(4 months ago) agreed it causes heart issues, but I had stopped long ago.)
AND I started taking ore Magnessium

exitium wrote:An ideal test is tough, especially for older folks. A skilled practitioner and a 21 point skin caliper is probably the best you will find short of hydro weighing but those folks can be hard to find. An easy fairly accurate test would be to see if anyone has a "bodpod" in your area. If you goto their website you can seach for places in your area that have them.
.

yeah, the issue is my parents live 5 hours away from me and they have loose skin.
There is a bodpod at my old college, I'm gonna schedule him for the next time I see him...lol odd you and I had the same idea, but there just arent that many options

exitium wrote:
There are a myriad of reasons why someone can have low T and while I dont think anyone can say without a shadow of a doubt they are all nutritionally related I would wager most of them will benefit to some degree from supplementation. This is where a lot of people seem to get hung up, they are looking for a smoking gun, they want to identify a single reason but that often detracts from finding a solution.

In a perfect world trying o get the nutrients we need from food would be the ideal solution the fact is with the food often comes a lot of toxins which destroy nutrients. Additionally due to the nutritional needs of some folks, for example those in early stages of arterial sclerosis, need say 6-10 grams of vit C per day. Its just not realistic to get that from food alone..

as I told the other dude in the other thread, I dunno
Would proper nutrition stop aging? IF you had 100% of all the vitamins/minerals/loving you need prevent you from having grey hair?
or prevent a women from dealing with menopause?
no, it's epigentics, switches turning on/off in the body, ie aging that cause these changes to happen
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/educati ... _genes.pdf

and if it is because of some missing "nutritional" element, then how do I go about finding it, without spending time and money that arent available?

HRT is shown to help lower A1c and fix lowT, both of which are harming him now.

exitium wrote:Symptoms arising from nutritional deficiencies can take months, years or even decades to manifest and likewise can take months or years to reverse. When I have worked with folks such as yourself I often encounter folks who claim "they have done everything" or "my diet is spot on". What I discover is there version of "spot on" is much different than mine.

For example, you said he doesnt supplement potassium, iodine or selenium. Now maybe your dad does get enough potassium from diet but its very likely he is iodine deficient. Personally I have been on 50mg a day for a year and a half. Japans average intake is around 12mg yet here in the US they say we only need 150mcg....no wonder we are a nation of fatties!

Additionally I have found the form of B vits many people use is inferior. What form of B12 is your father taking and how much? What about folate, niacin etc?

Ive been an avid lifter for almost 30 years now, I never took nutrition too seriously, at least not until my performance in the gym really started to suffer and I was diagnosed with afib. Sure I read thousands of pub med articles, many of which claimed this supplement or that one had no effect on this condition or that condition. But thats not where I stopped. One has to go back to the basics. What makes the body tick? Identify what happens within the organism when (insert name of any essential nutrient here) is withheld from the diet? Since this is the vit C forum we will use that. Pauling in his research and collaboration with other doctors have done a pretty good job of describing the role ascorbic acid plays in arterial health. While I have seen a lot of professionals in the medical community write off pauling therapy as a joke, I have never seen anyone effectively dispute the role ascorbic acid plays in arterial health or the process by which it functions. After all every doc on the planet will recognize and admit scurvy is real so why wont they admit that there are shades of grey between being 100% health and having scurvy?.

The pillls are an issue. but I have him on a few already(although my mom makes sure he takes them....LOL don't think he's some invalid, I think Im making it out like he is,
he's a highly respected,. practicing lawyer, and plays poker a lot..)

I wonder about the gym
He loves to do HIIT at the gym, since his gym has tvs in front of the machines, I have given him a detailed workout rountine, but have no idea how much effort he puts into his lifts.

Yeah, doctors arent all that smart(I know from being friends with a bunch of them from school) . Doctors might admit scurvy is real,, but they forget the cure, on the Terra Nova Expedition. a team of British scientists who took a three year journey to the South Pole, and packed nothing but biscuits, canned fat, cocoa, butter and sugar, which was supplemented by their horses when the starving time came. Despite the fact that it was almost 200 years after the cure for scurvy was discovered by one of their own damned countrymen, they were plum baffled when everyone got scurvy.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18533_th ... orgot.html
I added that just cause it's amusing.

exitium wrote:
Now your not going to find a bunch of articles in peer reviewed journals showing pauling therapy works so if thats your benchmark you very well could be condemning yourself to heart disease. At the same time however there are plenty of independent papers written by doctors that support pauling therapy and countless individual case studies and anecdotal claims from individuals around the globe that it works.

The above scenario in essence applies to every essential nutrient out there. There are shades of grey between 100% healthy and the point at which a clinical diagnosis of a deficiency will be made. The majority of the doctors out there do not seem to recognize the myriad of problems that can arise by being "in the grey area" nor do they seem to realize that a lab range applies to a population and only loosely applies to an individual. One example of this is the BMI(body mass index) that docs throw in your face nowadays. The BMI is a means to assess a population but when applied to the individual can be very misleading. For example according to the BMI, I am OBESE! If I alter the numbers I put into the BMI calculator, subtract the lbs of fat I am carrying from my overall weight and input that number number instead of my real weight (ie what I would weight if I had no bodyfat) and guess what???? Im still obese! How could someone with zero bodyfat be obese??.


I wanted studies about a very specific case.
I have ever seen any that adding X to the diet increases Testosterone.
unless X is Testosterone.. so I am left with an older man(66) who has high A1C/afib/LowT.
so do I add the obvious supplements, yes and he takes them(the best ones, found via consumerlabs)
do I start adding odd things? Yeah, Im adding shrimp/idoine.
but to just add things to get numbers, which are all in range, more in range/higher than range?
that's news to me and he may not have time to find a "natural" cure, .which is likely just plain impossible.(recall about vitamins preventing gray hair/menopause)

you've lifted 30yrs?
BMI is a great scale for those who don't lift... if you lift, it doesnt apply

exitium wrote:
Carrying that example over to lab ranges for hormones, lets look at testosterone, normal, depending on lab, will vary a bit but is typically in the 300-1000 range. I think we can all agree that most of us would prefer test levels more at the high end than the low end BUT regardless of where we sit, most of the time if we are in that range we are considered fine and healthy. However MANY men with test near the low end of the range suffer a myriad of low T symptoms.

Long story longer using lab ranges, unless clearly outside, as the sole guide to ones health is often not an accurate means of judging health, especially if there are symptoms to the contrary. With that in mind, above you stated his thyroid labs are fine however you have also stated he has symptoms, either directly or indirectly, that link to thyroid function. Now we all have the choice to blindly follow the lab ranges and what the FDA says we need as nutrition or we can expand our boundaries based on our understanding of the role nutrients play in our health and supplement accordingly.

So whats my solution you ask? Its a well thought out and complete supplementation plan using proper forms or nutrients and from proper manufacturers. Not all supplements are created equal, even if consumer labs say the product meets label claims. For example I have tried half a dozen B12 sources and only 1 of them seems to be effective for me. If you think your plan is perfect and are running out of ideas as to what could be the problem then its time to go back and reevaluate your plan.


Testosterone should be at a minimum of 400 I think to prevent stuff from happening
but it varies a lot because more important that total T is the T/E ratio

estradiol should be 20-30pg/ml
both high and low E cause issues and is thought to cause cancer,
I gave this link before but
http://www.lef.org/Magazine/2008/12/Des ... er/Page-01

Ive done a lot of research on it and I'm pulling more research because my dad has low T and high E2, giving him a rato of less than 7
His endocrinologist wont give him Test, which i agree with, as the 1st issue needs to be lowerin his e2(44)
which will likely raise test

you want a T/E ratio of about 30-50


going back and looking at my plan? why? I have yet to try HRT, why is that not a good plan?


Return to “Heart Disease: Linus Pauling's Vitamin C/Lysine Therapy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests

cron