Bowel tolerance down after surgery

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:08 am

Perhaps related to my recent right hemicolectomy, I cannot take more than about 4 or 5 grams of ascorbate before diarrhea arrives, but I cannot find specific/solid evidence that supports (either for or against) dividing up the dose into, say, 3 grams three times a day to avoid diarrhea but retain the CAD protective/reversal effect from Linus Pauling's recommendation.

Because of the short half life of most absorbed ascorbate, I feel that divided dose intake should be the same or even better than one dose per day of at least 9 grams (is this your minimum?), since for any specific dose the arrival of diarrhea means that there is an osmotic effect of the excess ascorbate (my guess), meaning that it is lost/not absorbed by the system.

Thanks.


From Hickey/Roberts Ascorbate: The Science of Vitamin C we learn that for people, without an extraordinary need, perhaps 250 mg every 3 hours keeps blood levels optimal. (Due to absorption issues and loss in the gut, we recommend 500 mg every 3 to 4 hours as a general tonic)

With 16 waking hours, that would mean around 5 doses or 2500 mg daily.

Some people have a higher metabolic need apparently.

I take say 20,000 daily, and with 5 doses that would be 4,000 mg each dose (rather than 500 mg)

For convenience I follow Pauling and have taken 9,000 mg at one time (twice daily) for years. (This is probably not as efficient as taking lower dosages more frequently, i.e. more is lost out the urine.)

As you say there might be several reasons why your bowel tolerance has dropped, and one thing to think about is using liposomal, even 1 or 2 grams daily, in case the problem is absorption. True-liposomes are almost 100% absorbed into the blood and seem to much better absorbed into cells.
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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:23 am

Since ascorbate is absorbed in the small intestine, the right hemicolectomy has no bearing. My GI doctor said that besides the possibility of an additional bowel movement per day (because of the lack of a cecum and proximal colon to delay transit), this is the only relatively adverse aspect to expect. Linus Pauling clearly had great results with megadose therapy dealing with end stage patients immobilized by angina, so it makes no sense to ignore his experience that is more than just anecdotal. These studies and others with low dose ascorbate are not accurate:

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitami ... fessional/


"Results from most clinical intervention trials have failed to show a beneficial effect of vitamin C supplementation on the primary or secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease. In the Women's Antioxidant Cardiovascular Study, a secondary prevention trial involving 8,171 women aged 40 years or older with a history of cardiovascular disease, supplementation with 500 mg/day vitamin C for a mean of 9.4 years showed no overall effect on cardiovascular events [62]. Similarly, vitamin C supplementation (500 mg/day) for a mean follow-up of 8 years had no effect on major cardiovascular events in male physicians enrolled in the Physicians' Health Study II [63]."

But then you know all this already...


Without looking up the study, I would eat my hat if a study actually gave nurses 500 mg/day for years! (Usually these contrary 'studies' used food questionnaires, and they were able to cleverly screen out the value of vitamin C by cherry picking which subjects were included.) Do you have the references? I will post this at our forum and I am interested in these studies.

If the second one is the "Rimm" study, then I can explain how they were able to block noticing an effect of vitamin C by focusing on vitamin E.

And remember I was suggesting 500 mg every 3 to 4 hours - not 500 mg per day.

Here is the 16-year Harvard nurses study I often quote, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12875759?dopt=Abstract because it suggests that a single Vitamin C pill would save 300,000 lives annually...


"The study published July 16, 2003 in CARDIOLOGY tracked more than 85,000 nurses over 16 years found that those taking vitamin C supplements (360 mg) had almost 30 percent lower risk of getting heart disease. The number of deaths from heart disease every year is estimated at 950,000.

Interestingly, dietary intake of vitamin C seemed to have little effect on coronary heart disease risk. But if women used vitamin C supplements, their risk was reduced by 27 percent."
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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:06 am

ofonorow wrote:Here is the 16-year Harvard nurses study I often quote, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12875759?dopt=Abstract because it suggests that a single Vitamin C pill would save 300,000 lives annually...

"The study published July 16, 2003 in CARDIOLOGY tracked more than 85,000 nurses over 16 years found that those taking vitamin C supplements (360 mg) had almost 30 percent lower risk of getting heart disease. The number of deaths from heart disease every year is estimated at 950,000.

Interestingly, dietary intake of vitamin C seemed to have little effect on coronary heart disease risk. But if women used vitamin C supplements, their risk was reduced by 27 percent."


If I didn't misread this study:

RESULTS: During 16 years of follow-up (1,240,566 person-years), we identified 1,356 incident cases of CHD. After adjustment for age, smoking, and a variety of other coronary risk factors, we observed a modest significant inverse association between total intake of vitamin C and risk of CHD (relative risk [RR] = 0.73; 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.57 to 0.94)


27% is relative risk reduction, and NOT about absolute risk. That would mean from 1,356 CHD cases 586 (dietary) versus 770 (supplemented vitamin C) - a difference of 183 real cases.

From this follows for the 85,118 nurses with only 183 CHD cases less with Vitamin C supplemented a absolute risk reduction of 0,215 % only. That from the 950,000 yearly CHD deaths would still amount to about 20,000 less. But only if this study wouldn't have mingled nonfatal and fatal CHD!

Nurses were followed up for 16 years for the development of incident CHD (nonfatal myocardial infarction and fatal CHD).


Without that differentiation a pretty worthless study.

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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#4  Post by pamojja » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:39 am

pamojja wrote:... a absolute risk reduction of 0,215 % only. That from the 950,000 yearly CHD deaths would still amount to about 20,000 less. But only if this study wouldn't have mingled nonfatal and fatal CHD!

Without that differentiation a pretty worthless study.


One mistake in my calculation, I would have to take the whole US population, according to wikipedia 320 Million, which would give 6,879,860 lives saved.

Holy moses, about 7 times more than are actually dying of CHD!

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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:11 pm

The estimate of lives saved came from an associated news story/press release pamojja. The point was that for something that has no relation to heart disease - Harvard noticed a reduction in CVD risk from taking supplements (but not from vitamin C in foods, as per usual recommendation here in USA).

Anyway back to our conversation.


Owen,

I appreciate your discussion about dosages for ascorbate and lysine and proline, particularly where more frequent dosing of smaller amounts IS the critical issue for availability via the oral route (versus taking too much at one time that is then "wasted" because it is not absorbed).

This has caused me to question Pauling's recommendation of 9 grams of ascorbate twice a day because of other research that most of it simply cannot be absorbed either immediately or in a delayed fashion if taken orally. I am referring to the peak blood plasma levels from oral consumption only. IV administration is simply not how most people can take these substances on an ongoing basis for prevention or reversal of disease.

For the record, Pauling's own dosage of 18 grams (9 grams twice daily) from 1986 was published in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER, and bears no relation to heart disease. This was Linus Pauling's personal dosage recommendation.

The Hickey/Robert's Dynamic Flow Theory wasn't formulated for at least another decade.

After reading the first Pauling 1970 book VITAMIN C, THE COMMON COLD, AND THE FLU (in 1983) I followed his recommendations and began taking 3 grams of vitamin C daily, with almost miraculous results. Then when HTLLAFB was published (and I read Cathcart's BOWEL TOLERANCE paper, that Pauling had taken the time to send to me in paper form) I found I could match Pauling's 9000 mg every 12 hours. (At that point even my gout and hayfever/allergies disappeared.)

Here is what I noticed about the 9000 mg every 12 hours. After about 12 hours, I would start to feel a tickle in my throat; I could tell the blood levels had gotten low and needed another dose. And while I might have been able to take more, I had no issues with gas or the runs. I had seen a Pauling Video on Cancer where he explained that his 18 g daily intake was based on the average daily endogenous production of mammals, adjusted for his body weight - or 9000 mg daily. His experiments had shown that at the dosage of 9,000 mg - only about half made it into the blood stream, so he had to take 18,000 mg daily to match what our friends in the animal kingdom make and put into their blood streams.

Knowing what we think we know today, based on Dynamic Flow, perhaps more of a lower dose might make its way into the blood stream as intact ascorbate. The objective for someone the size of a Linus Pauling is still 9000 mg, but perhaps 18,000 would not be required taking lower doses. (The 2 times daily is certainly more convenient).

Thought experiment. If the goal is 9000 mg entering the blood stream, per Pauling, and there are 16 waking hours in a day, then lets say 4 doses (a dose every 4 hours), if 100% were bioavailable, that would be 2,225 mg every 4 hours. (And liposomal may be close to 100% bioavailable.)

The question is what does the oral dose have to be for 2,225 mg to enter the blood stream. At 9000 mg, Pauling felt there was a 50% loss, so we at least have a range, somewhere between 2,225 and 4,500 mg every 4 hours achieves the same blood concentration, and probably more optimally so closer to the 2,225 mg every 4 hours. (So this might cut the daily intake almost in half and still achieve what Pauling (and I) achieve.)



In other words, I am still having problems with finding evidence to support the most effective dosage for me (meaning a person that has CAD but that is no longer symptomatic after stent placement). Using diarrhea as the end point of too much ascorbate is misleading because this depends on the bowel transit time and other factors (such as taking it with food) as well as individual (genetic) variations. No matter how much is sitting in the GI tract, there are sharp limits as to how much can be absorbed, even taking into account passive diffusion, which cannot be a big factor. Even animals who can make ascorbate and do not have CAD do not come close to 20 grams per day (adjusted for weight). So where did this come from? Sometimes more is not better



Hope last verbose discussion answers this - 20 g: Pauling's own intake based upon observation of what animals make and our loss in the gut from oral intake. (I have made the wager that half that, 10 grams daily, is 99% protective of CVD, based on my phone calls with heart patients over the years.)

All this is with the backdrop of the Cathcart Bowel Tolerance paper (i assume you have read http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/Vitamin_C_Dosage_in_Disease.pdf ) and there is another way for individuals to determine their personal vitamin C need - the Russell Jaffe C Calibration (or Cleanse) http://www.perque.com/lifestyle/self-tests/ascorbate-cleanse/.


While I think that it is marvelous how many end stage symptomatic cardiac patients repeatedly showed a reversal of symptoms under Pauling, I cannot find where he came up with the suggested regimen of 9 grams of ascorbate twice a day OR if this amount was decreased to the point where symptoms did not go away (other than some mention I cannot now find where 4 or 5 grams once or twice a day were not sufficient). From a recent paper:

2011 American Society for Nutrition. Adv. Nutr. 2: 78–88, 2011

"At doses > 400 mg/d, further increases in plasma concentrations were minimal."

"The clinical pharmacokinetic studies showed that vitamin C concentrations in plasma and tissues were tightly controlled (Fig. 1A–C). At doses < 100 mg/d, there was a steep sigmoidal relationship between dose and concentrations. At doses > 100 mg/d, plasma concentrations reached a plateau between 70 and 80 µmol/L. At doses > 400 mg/d, further increases in plasma concentrations were minimal. At least 3 mechanisms were responsible for tight control: absorption (bioavailability), tissue transport, and renal reabsorption and excretion."

And,

"Figure 1 (A) Plasma vitamin C concentrations as a function of dose. The relationship between oral doses of vitamin C and the mean fasting steady-state plasma vitamin C concentration in 7 healthy men and 15 healthy women are shown. The daily doses of vitamin C were: 30, 60, 100, 200, 400, 1000, and 2500 mg. The dose concentration curve is sigmoidal with its steep portion between 30 and 100 mg of vitamin C daily......(C) Urinary vitamin C excretion as a function of single vitamin C doses at steady state in 7 healthy men. Vitamin C excretion over 24 h was determined after administration of single doses given either orally or i.v. (Inset A) Vitamin C excretion for single oral or intravenous doses of 15–100 mg."


Their use of a total amount "per day" is strange, given what we know about the rapid renal clearance of ascorbate. To say that there is a plateau of between 70 and 80 µmol/L for 400 mg or any larger amounts implies that taking more than 400 mg at any point in the day will not result in higher blood levels.

So the pregnant questions are:

If 500 mg of ascorbate (and lysine with less proline) is taken every two or three hours, should this be sufficient to reverse heart disease?
If more is taken at one time, is this not wasteful because no appreciable further absorption is possible?

Until beat over the head with evidence to show otherwise, I am going to take 1 gram ascorbate and lysine and around 250 mg of proline every three hours. This sounds like a hassle but reversal of CAD should be possible with this regimen.

Any feedback about these issues on your blog? As I said before, you are welcome to use any correspondence from me if it helps clarify critical issues or generates more thinking and discussion.

Cordially,

Tom


The plateau and saturation arguments are addressed in the Hickey/Roberts book THE RIDICULOUS DIETARY ALLOWANCE where these authors use the NIH's own data/numbers! Background in their first book, ASCORBATE: THE SCIENCE OF VITAMIN C, and a very good lay explanation in the Saul/Hickey book: VITAMIN C: THE REAL STORY..

I think your plan is a good plan, i.e., if you take 1000 mg of lysine every 3 hours - might be close to 100% absorbed, that is 5000 mg daily. Now this is half of what Pauling himself aimed at, but it is about the lower end of the Therapeutic Threshold for CVD that Pauling recommends on the Unified Theory Lecture (on Video). I believe this snipet of his lecture contains his recommendations when he recorded the video; https://youtu.be/7c4lwRhvI2E

5000 mg of vitamin C were keeping the scientist in the first Pauling case alive. The reversal didn't happen until the scientist added 5000 mg of lysine.

I wouldn't get hung up on the 20 grams, and the only problem with your regimen is the inconvenience. However, we have noticed that the higher the starting dosage, the more remarkable the result seems to the heart patient.

And there is something wrong with the argument about "wasting" higher dosages if the reason we get diarrhea is because the vitamin is not absorbed and makes it to the rectum. If I take 9000 mg at once, without diarrhea, how is it wasted?

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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#6  Post by Johnwen » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:57 am

Here’s some studies that show what is what and what does what! It may help this person in their understanding of how V-C acts and lasts inside the body!
Me I prefer the steady state application of 1500-2000Mg. Every 4-6 hours! After many years of taking V-C when I go over the 6 hour mark! My body let’s me know it’s time for more. That’s me! For anyone else it maybe different.
Hope these studies can answer some questions!


http://www.encognitive.com/files/Pharma ... in%20C.pdf


http://prhsj.rcm.upr.edu/index.php/prhs ... view/13/11


http://injectablevitaminc.com/images/Ch33.pdf

http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/2/78.full.pdf
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:21 am

Thanks johnwen! (This person is a medical doctor :D )

Owen,

Good discussion! I am a big fan of fewer words to communicate recommendations to others, particularly those who are not medically trained or familiar. This of course does not apply to my emails....

Your very last sentence is problematic:

And there is something wrong with the argument about "wasting" higher dosages if the reason we get diarrhea is because the vitamin is not absorbed and makes it to the rectum. If I take 9000 mg at once, without diarrhea, how is it wasted?

If the ingested substance is not absorbed, and absorption is required to obtain the benefits (meaning in the blood stream versus, say, bathing the cells of the GI tract with the extra Vitamin C that is not absorbed) then it is wasted.

Whether or not the ascorbate is responsible for diarrhea on the way out seems to depend on many variables that operate at the submegadosage amounts (meaning those amounts over which most people get the runs).

Some people, like me, move the ascorbate in an accelerated fashion, since I can get the runs only 3 hours after consumption if I take too much (on an empty stomach). This is weird, since I am only missing about 2.5 feet of my right colon.

From:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/digestive-sys ... q-20058340

"In the 1980s, Mayo Clinic researchers measured digestion time in 21 healthy people. Total transit time, from eating to elimination in stool, averaged 53 hours (although that figure is a little overstated, because the markers used by the researchers passed more slowly through the stomach than actual food). The average transit time through just the large intestine (colon) was 40 hours, with significant difference between men and women: 33 hours for men, 47 hours for women."

At any rate, all this is very interesting but the bottom line is what you commented on, namely the minimal amounts of ascorbate, lysine, and proline that are believed to halt the progression or repair the lesions of atherosclerosis.

I believe that it will help to clarify these issues right up front, since the reasoning or recommendations only being buried in a book or a long discussion will result in fewer people who might try doing it (which includes not being specifically addressed, such as Pauling's 9 gm BID regimen).

The "sound bite" nature of the Internet and average attention spans is an unfortunate result of the often overwhelming information overload of the Internet, so brevity is at the top of the list, otherwise many will simply move on to a simpler website or another topic....


Hard to give this the attention it deserves, but the first question is, if I take 9,000 mg, I used to believe that all or most of it entered the blood stream, and that a temporary high level in the blood was filtered out by the kidneys bringing the blood level to 1.5 mg/dl.

So any loss was ascorbate in the blood that wasn't taken in by cells. (And why and how much ascorbate tissues absorb is a totally different conversation - people with mono can take over 200,000 mg per day!)

If I took more than 9000 mg at one time, there would be diarrhea at some point - which I interpret as loss because it was not absorbed through the gut wall into the blood stream.

Then I hear Pauling (and Cathcart) say that some amount of what is taken orally is lost, or almost 50% at the 9 gram level. (I am confused about his "loss").

Any blood measurements must account for the fact that Pauling told us that as we maintain high blood levels and intake, enzyme systems begin that use up ascorbate. (This is the basis of the rebound effect when high dose ascorbate is suddenly discontinued.)
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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:05 am

I am going to go through this - because it is interesting - but I'll have to post and think more about it.

Before commenting, have you seen the Hugh Riordan video (on our cancer page?) https://youtu.be/pnvtep-O8y8 About 1/3 of the way through he explained how his personal interest in vitamin C began, and it is worth telling, because it illustrates the massive draws tissues can have on any available ascorbate in the blood - so that blood measurements are essentially useless.

Riordan was a medical student and was performing a project that required him to measure his vitamin C levels in the blood daily. During this time, he was bitten by a spider (or scorpion) and noticed that his vitamin C levels in the blood after the bite measured zero. So he gave himself a 10 gram IV/C and remeasured. His measured blood levels were still 0.

This went on for several days - 10 gram IV/C, then immediate blood measurement after the IV showed zero.

On day 4, after the IV, he finally began measuring vitamin C in the blood again.

This is another way of looking at what Cathcart discovered. That when people require C - they can metabolize huge amounts. (And yes, I have seen my own bowel tolerance rise to over 150,000 mg per day - turned out to be a bacterial infection, and I used Cathcart's table to help me diagnose it.)

now to your comments below

.

Owen,

I thought that I did answer it, namely that the limiting factor is not the runs per se but the saturation of transport mechanisms from the GI tract to the bloodstream (besides this absorption should only be occurring in the proximal small intestine). This is supported by multiple journal articles that measured blood levels that were done after Pauling's death. ​


​Counter: From Hickey/Roberts Ridiculous Dietary Allowance they cite work showing that ascorbic acid (not sodium ascorbate) can be​ ​absorbed into the blood stream through the stomach wall - so long as the stomach acid levels are normal (low).

We are able to view this using crude glucose meters (that we discovered can be used to measure vitamin C in the blood). This is why I was surprised that Pauling felt 50% loss - but maybe not all ascorbic acid is transmitted to the blood this way?

You know something like this must be happening when someone has sinus mucous and 500 mg can take it away in less then 5-10 minutes. There isn't enough time for it to travel into the intestines.​



As per Owen Fonorow (!!!) elevated ascorbate levels in the GI tract do not cause diarrhea for many people IF the total amount ingested at one time is no more than 9 gm (much of this has to be wasted as well because of calculations similar to the ones below). The only mechanism I know of for ingested substances like ascorbate producing the runs is the osmotic effect, which overwhelms the normal colonic function of removing excess water from feces. But there may be another mechanism at work.



​And I believe it is because people follow Catchart's advice, take vitamin C as mostly ascorbic acid - and it doesn't make it into the gut.​


IF the ingested ascorbate does not make it past the intestinal transport cells to the blood stream then it is lost to the physiology of the organism, so Pauling's estimate that at least 50% was lost makes sense.


​Except that some percentage of AA can be absorbed through the stomach wall.


This is also true of other water soluble vitamins taken in megadoses, which prompted the mainstream medical/pharmaceutical waste-of-much-money establishment to make fun of alternative medicine (the vitamins are just pissed away....). Never mind that most pharmaceutical substances have bad side effect profiles and are obscenely expensive; it is all about making money anyway....


But we have this problem, even in the gut, why does people's bowel tolerance levels change based on stress/illness? And why when the stress/illness subsides, does the diarrhea start? (It is Cathcart's guess that when a certain level of ascorbate reaches the gut - the osmotic effect leads to diarrhea.) So when people are taking 200,000 mg and not reaching diarrhea - the assumption is that they body is absorbing and metabolizing the ascorbate.)​

The paper that I attached earlier used oral ascorbate amounts up to 2,500 per day. I mention this because I don't know what you mean by 1.5 mg/deciliter of blood for an ascorbate level modified by renal excretion. I may be getting this wrong but since 4.7 to 5.5 liters is the amount of blood for an average male, which is 47 to 55 deciliters; this means 1.5 x 47/55 = 70.5 mg/82.5 mg of ascorbate for the whole body?? This cannot be what you meant.


​The normal blood range for vitamin C is 0 to 1.5 mg/dl.

Now if you take 9000 mg, it will get much higher, and intravenous higher still, but there are "ascorbate pumps" in the kidney that do not "kick in" until blood levels drop to 1.5 mg/dl or less. All described by Pauling in his book. Hickey's analogy is the hole in the bucket.. The level of the hole is maintained by the kidneys, the rest is flushed - but that be good for us :-)



But HOW is it possible for anyone to take TWO HUNDRED gm of ascorbate per day like for mono without being turned inside out (remember the transportation scene of the pigmy monster on the rock planet in Galaxy Quest?.....)? How was this arrived at? From a logical standpoint, I would not treat mono this way, besides keeping in mind that most cases are self-limited.



​The bowel tolerance effect is measured as a reduction in symptoms - just before the diarrhea, so it is somewhat of an art. Most people can feel well (and mostly avoid the blast) once they learn the technique - no matter what disease they have.

Interesting, in Cathcart's discussion of bowel tolerance, https://youtu.be/KQmAxiR0SHE he references pets and animals. They do not generally suffer diseases that have bowel tolerances less than what they can make. Distemper and the other animal/pet illnesses have bowel tolerances much higher than animals can meet with their own production - leading to the orthomolecular veterinarians​



At first glance, deciding how much is enough by clinicians prior to the age of technology, it seems to be similar to the observation paradoxes of old with leeches or active blood letting


​Not quite, because we have been told we need 60 maybe 90 mg daily.​

​Almost everyone can take 200 mg daily (although Cathcart felt that properly spaced, almost everyone can take 4,000 mg orally)

So how is it like leeches when someone with mono starts taking 200 grams, feels well, and is over the disease in a matter of days?

The point is that ANYONE can try this and will notice the effect, even if we are all different.​


. While the occasional person would be helped dramatically by getting rid of the excess iron contained in hemoglobin that is available to promote the reproduction of bacterial and other pathogens has the opposite effect if it is removed. In fact, removal of iron from mucosal surfaces is one of the most primitive mechanisms of organisms (including us) when attacked by pathogens (known as The Iron Withholding Mechanism). Statistically, most illnesses treated by bloodletting were infections but there was much more damage done than good. How many patients were killed as a result where they might have survived via their immune systems? Think George Washington for starters.



​No opinion - for a change :)​


What I really wonder about is how HUGE doses of ascorbate that far exceed any animal's ability to make were concluded to be necessary for treating any disease? It is great to be enthusiastic, but not so great to overstep firm scientific/physiological principles.


​Did you know a goat, adjust for body weight, can make over 130,000 mg of ascorbate daily - under stress?​


We know now that there are only tiny amounts of increased absorption from huge doses, if any. So HOW did these huge amounts recommended for treatment come to pass except that more is better besides nobody being able to tolerate such large amounts of ascorbate?



​But we hardly "know" this... And when I can take the time to analyze the studies you mention, I'll try to highlight the flaws.
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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:34 pm

Owen,

Although I am VERY behind in my reading, have there been any reproducible measurements as to how long lysine and proline remain in the blood stream and how often they have to be taken to achieve (or remain above) the threshold amounts necessary to prevent and reverse CHD?

I know that lysine should be taken in at least the same amount as ascorbate and proline about 1/5 as much. Whereas it has been indirectly verified by Pauling and others that these amounts are necessary for reversing symptoms of cardiac cripples, I have not found any information about the half life or clearance of these amino acids from the bloodstream. This would bear directly on the amounts and frequency of consumption in order to keep the bloodstream "topped off" therefore presumably available for the active reversal of existing plaques.

Thanks.


Well, if you want to have some fun - you can read a few of the testimonials. on

http://practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/#TESTIMONY

They attest to the fact that the dosages Pauling recommended work for the vast amount of severely ill CVD patients. (And while I don't personally know the answers about the lysine/proline pharmakenetics, I did speak with Pauling's daughter Linda-pauling Kamb. She told me that her father spent a lot of time calculating the amount of Lysine to recommend, and thus his recommendations were not give lightly. Food contains about 1 gram of lysine daily - and lysine is essential.)

We are even thinking of publishing a book - just of the testimonials. It would be a thick book :-)

Pauling never recommended proline (Mathias Rath did/does) and the work showing the proline binding sites on the Lp(a) molecule (analogous to the lysine binding sites) was done after his death at the University of Chicago.

But back to our discussion on vitamin C blood levels, saturation and optimal amounts.

Can we simplify the issue?

Is the basic question: How much vitamin C is bioavailable at a given dose?

Lets consider a 10 gram IV/C versus 10 grams of oral ascorbic acid taken all at once.

I believe your contention is that 10 grams of sodium ascorbate directly by vein is more "bioavailable"?

i.e, 100% IV/C (sodium ascorbate) makes it into the blood stream over the course of 20 or 30 minutes.

I believe that, in my case, almost 100% of ascorbic acid taken orally makes it into the blood stream, the majority within 20 to 30 minutes.

So how do we determine whether my belief is valid?

And I may have a crude way of measuring - assuming I can get our local doc to give me a 10 Gram IV.

But even if only half of my oral AA makes it, Cathcart points out that at least twice as much of a mineral ascorbate is needed for the therapeutic effects of ascorbic acid.

Now I'll take a look at some of those studies you mentioned earlier...
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

nineboy
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Re: Bowel tolerance down after surgery

Post Number:#10  Post by nineboy » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:36 am

Well up early this morning and took my 3 grams Vitamin C powder with some baking soda. I've been trying this the last few mornings. Plus my lysene and proline and other vitamins and some medications too. Bowel tolerance is certainly down and I only just made it to the bathroom not long afterwards. So for now I'm taking about 9 grams of C a day and my body seems to be fairly happy with that. It is so hot here just now and we are sweltering in the heat. Just a quick report on how I'm doing. Got to go. Regards.


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