German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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pamojja
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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#181  Post by pamojja » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:10 pm

Frodo wrote:I forgot to say:
I‘m sorry, I don‘t eat fish. :D


Apropos, Dr. Davis of the old PlaqueYourTrack forum made the experience that about 50% of his patients with high Lp(a) on high dose fish-oil (total 6g of EPA/DHA content per day) after 2-3 years dropped to almost zero. However, again due to bio-chemical individuality, didn't worked for me.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#182  Post by Frodo » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:02 pm

If what you are saying is right, we could be lucky. Because our lp(a)-repair mechanism works. According to Pauling/Rath important for the survival of our ancestors in vitamin pour times.
And the risk factors of medieval medicine don‘t scare me, if it‘s true, what Pauling/Rath said, that the cause is always a nutrient deficiency.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#183  Post by Frodo » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:09 pm

And fish oil: My omega-3 index is about 16. Like an eskimo. And the omega-6 : omega-3 ratio = 1 : 1. I was afraid of my blood is too thin, if I take any other bloodthinner.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#184  Post by pamojja » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:24 pm

Frodo wrote:And the risk factors of medieval medicine don‘t scare me, if it‘s true, what Pauling/Rath said, that the cause is always a nutrient deficiency.


Not so fast, these risk-factors all imply something isn't working correctly, like inflammation. Which in most cases can indeed be corrected by nutrition and high-dose nutrients. While routinely available nutrient-test in serum are pretty unreliable.

For example homocysteine tells there is something with your B6/B9/B12 not working well worth to investigate. High inflammation markers, like c-reactive protein, ESR of fibrinogen - you rather up your vitamin C intake. High Lp(a) and you better take therapeutic doses of AA and lysine, etc.. Don't throw out the baby with the bath-water.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#185  Post by Frodo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:05 am

Dear pamojja
I think you haven‘t understood my basic question at all. Which is: Are LP and Matthias Rath right with their insights and theory, especially that lp(a) is a surrogate for ascorbate. I am convinced of it and I hope they are right.
Against this background I asked if all people with atherosclerosis have high lp(a).
You don‘t have to tell me anything about risk factors or other problems. I‘m well aware of all that.
Sorry, but I think you‘re fishing somewhere in the murky. I have no interest in such advice.
On this occasion: You also claimed that VC and iodine should not be taken together. Lynne Farrow gave a convincing answer (see the post about it). I see her laughing.

To all others in the forum
I asked Matthias Rath himself. And I‘ll report if I got his answer.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#186  Post by pamojja » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:03 am

Frodo wrote:On this occasion: You also claimed that VC and iodine should not be taken together. Lynne Farrow gave a convincing answer (see the post about it). I see her laughing.

I think now you misunderstood what I said:

pamojja wrote:
Frodo wrote:How do you know?


Also it's pretty obvious if one adds any vitamin C with lugol's solution in water, its color immediately disappears. Though the iodide is still beneficial, just the specific benefits of iodine are less.


That isn't an behavioral advise to anyone at all. That is just what's happens. That's why I take them separate. And I even agree with Farrow that before one doesn't take iodine due to that complexity, it's better just to ignore that chemical reaction and take them together. I take iodine separate. And iodide together with vitamin C.

Frodo wrote:Dear pamojja
I think you haven‘t understood my basic question at all. Which is: Are LP and Matthias Rath right with their insights and theory, especially that lp(a) is a surrogate for ascorbate. I am convinced of it and I hope they are right.
Against this background I asked if all people with atherosclerosis have high lp(a).


Lp(a) is not the only surrogate for ascorbate. That is where more complexity comes in, and why I mentioned other factors. In some individuals it might, in others other factors are also at play, and blood levels of ascorbate never correlate to those of Lp(a).

Not all people with atherosclerosis have high Lp(a). And some people without atherosclerosis have high Lp(a) too. That has already been measured countless times. And I'm not interested in any pet theories - probably misunderstood too - but in what's true. Especially in that which has bearings on changing the outcome of the disease. And if or not all people with arteriosclerosis have or not have Lp(a), wouldn't change anything about that. But achieved Remission with the proper means.

Frodo wrote:Sorry, but I think you‘re fishing somewhere in the murky. I have no interest in such advice.


Sorry, but I think you misunderstood what others, like Farrow or Rath, said. And if you are interested or not - with which I'm always fine with - my interest is in adding an other perspective, so that each reader can decide for oneself who is fishing in the murky.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#187  Post by Frodo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:50 am

I got an answer to my question about lp(a) and atherosclerosis from the Dr. Rath-Team:
„I would like to send you studies and links, but I‘m not aware of any of them.
I suspect it‘s gonna be hard to find because lp(a) isn‘t the standard of blood tests. I don‘t know how and where large scale measurements or even evaluations could be available. But I‘ll inquire further about it“. (I translated it)

I‘ll inquire further, too. And I‘ll report.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#188  Post by pamojja » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:09 am

Frodo wrote:„I would like to send you studies and links, but I‘m not aware of any of them.
I suspect it‘s gonna be hard to find because lp(a) isn‘t the standard of blood tests. I don‘t know how and where large scale measurements or even evaluations could be available. But I‘ll inquire further about it“.


Unbelieveable, an other one, even from a research team, who doesn't know how to search the Internet in 2018. :shock:

The largest epidemiological study to date on Lp(a) assessed individual records of 126 634 participants in 36 prospective studies.


Lipoprotein(a) as a cardiovascular risk factor: current status

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3295201/ Proxy Highlight

21 Oct 2010 ... Lipoprotein(a) [Lp(a)] has been considered a cardiovascular risk ..... Elevated Lp( a) is also an independent CVD risk factor in patients with ...

Lipoprotein(a) in Cardiovascular Diseases - NCBI - NIH

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591100/

Dec 30, 2012 - Many observations have pointed out that Lp(a) levels may be a risk factor for cardiovascular diseases. Lp(a) inhibits the activation of ...

Lp(a) as a new target for reduction of risk of cardiovascular disease ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061509/ Proxy Highlight

The etiologic role of Lp(a) in CVD is no longer debated ... CVD, and that this risk is curvilinearly related to CVD risk.

Lipoprotein(a) and cardiovascular disease - UpToDate

https://www.uptodate.com/contents/lipoprotein-a-an... Proxy Highlight

In the era of focusing on CVD risk prediction and disease prevention, Lp(a) may prove to be an important risk marker, especially in women, that ...

Lipoprotein(a). What is lipoprotein(a) and why is it important?

https://www.docsopinion.com/health-and-nutrition/l... Proxy Highlight

also associated with Lp(a) levels. Two common gene variants rs10455872 and rs3798220 have been found to be associated with CVD risk in whites.7.

Lipoprotein(a) in Cardiovascular Diseases - Hindawi

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2013/650989/ Proxy Highlight

8 Nov 2012 ... Lipoprotein(a) (Lp(a)) is an LDL-like molecule consisting of an ..... of global cardiovascular risk, and use of niacin for Lp(a) and CVD risk ...

Lipoprotein - The Journal of Lipid Research

http://www.jlr.org/content/57/7/1111.full.pdf Proxy Highlight
...

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#189  Post by Frodo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:30 am

I received my lab report today. After that the lp(a) value is now 157 nmol/l. Reference value is <75.

That confirms once again that the value is now „stable“. Before, it still swings upwards.

And it decreases ve...ry slowly (from 165 to 157).

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#190  Post by Frodo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:34 am

Another question: Are there any forum members who have atherosclerosis and no elevated lp(a)?

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#191  Post by Frodo » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:15 am

Owen wrote:

ofonorow wrote:The only thing we know from experimental science is that Lp(a) becomes elevated in the absence of sufficient vitamin C. I don't know of any experiments that show Lp(a) decreases after sufficient vitamin C is introduced. There is the early "Reversibility" experiments by Willis, starting with https://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/WillisAthero106.pdf that showed in guinea pigs, that CVD can be reversed by introducing vitamin C back into the guinea pig's diet. This implies a reduction in apo(a) (lp(a)). We have the New York Medical professor's experience (after adding proline) and our anecdotal evidence from this forum.

Does the Lp(a) test include the particle size? Small Lp(a) are more atherogenic (dangerous) than larger molecules. And if you Lp(a) is remaining elevated, all the more reason to keep taking the Pauling/Rath Lp(a) binding inhibitors, e.g. vit C, lysine and proline.


I have sorted a part of my articles and studies. And found an article by Matthias Rath and Linus Pauling from the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine 1992, 7: 81-82, called „Lipoprotein(a) Reduction by Ascorbate“:

„Patients, Materials and Methods

Eleven outpatients with coronary heart disease and elevated lp(a) levels conserted to participate in this study. The patients received 9 grams of ascorbate acid per day for a period of 14 weeks. Plasma lp(a) levels were determined at the beginning and at the end of the study...

In this study ascorbate was found to lower lp(a) plasma levels on average by 27% with a median value also of 27%. Two of the 11 patients showed no decrease of lp(a) during this time period...“

Okay, only 11 patients. But lp(a) reduced by 27% that‘s very good.

I wonder why lp(a) doesn‘t reduce so much on me.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#192  Post by Frodo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:46 am

I would be interested to know how often members of the forum measure their lp(a) value. And whether the value remains stable or changes. If the value rises, have you found any reasons?

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#193  Post by pamojja » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:09 pm

Had Lp(a) tested 17 times within the last 10 years. Started Pauling therapy late in 2008, sadly have no before result. Here my each year averaged out results:

Code: Select all

year mg/dl

2009  57
2010  47
2011  59
2012  55
2013  43
2014  47
2015  35
2016  51
2017  45
2018  61


Highest its been end of '11 and beginning of '12 (66, 64), lowest ever '15 (36, 34).
The highest coincides with a chronic bronchitis for the whole of 2012, earning my a COPD 1 diagnosis, asymptomatic after.
The lowest coincides short after having a 60% walking-disability revoked from PAD.

Therefore the first rise could be explained with developing chronic bronchitis, the one this year no idea.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#194  Post by Frodo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:27 pm

Thanks pamojja.

I hope I get more answers.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#195  Post by Frodo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:41 am

zarfas

What about your lp(a) values? Did your value remain stable?


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