ascorbic acid levels in animals

This forum will focus on the interesting topic of titrating oral vitamin C intake to so-called bowel tolerance, the point just prior to the onset of diarrhea

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zucic

Re: Saturation

Post Number:#16  Post by zucic » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:46 am

Ralph Lotz wrote:Given that we must get our ascorbate through the digestive system, how much do we need then to reach maximum blood saturation?

Maybe this concept of blood saturation is not a good one. If we ingest
a lot of ascorbate, it may be difficult to further increase the transport rate,
because the number of transporters is limited and for some other reasons.
I haven't seen that anyone proved the perfect saturation of transport, when
it is impossible to achieve any further increase in transport rate.

However, it is not easy to push above the bowel tolerance.

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Re: ascorbic acid levels in animals

Post Number:#17  Post by trillian » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:20 am

zucic wrote: I was looking for this information for days and I have found an
article in Turkish language (2001), which states that young goats
have about 0.7 mg/dl of vitamin C in serum
(serum = plasma minus clotting factors).

An average human on decent diet (without supplementation) mantains
about 0.6 mg/dl of ascorbic acid in plasma, but we are not goats, we
have different metabolic rate etc... We can and we should push far
beyond this value!



Well, if there is only .1mg/dl difference between and average goat, which
supposedly produces 50mg/ kilo of bodyweight and a human without supplementation
that reasonably could not be ingesting anywhere near that amount then there's
either something very odd about that OR that extra .1 or so mg/dl is actually a
huge number in real terms (but this would assume that it is exponential).

So, I find that confusing (unless it is simply not true that without supplementation
a human would have such an ascorbate blood level).

-S

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Half Life

Post Number:#18  Post by ofonorow » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:39 am

The vitamin C concentration in the blood is maximum with an oral intake of 150 to 200 mg daily at 15 mg/dl. (Thank you Linus Pauling, HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER, 1986) Serum levels above 15 mg/dl are filtered by the kidneys.

Ergo, blood concentration is a poor indicator of vitamin C sufficiency (unless it is constantly less than 15 mg/dl which would indicate a probable deficiency) and thanks to Hickey/Roberts Dynamic Flow, we understand that Ascorbate has a 30 minute half-life, and like water, constantly flows out of the body.

Pauling pointed out that at levels around 15 mg/dl enzyme systems begin to convert ascorbate into different substances. Pauling speculated that these substances had healthful effects, perhaps even anti-cancer effects. (The discontinuation effect is caused by these enzyme systems when there isn't sufficient ascorbate to "power" these reactions, and blood levels drop)

So the goat's blood levels are not as important as the quantity of ascorbate its liver manufactures throughout the day.

A more important measure, which is more difficult to ascertain, is tissue uptake and saturation. Cheraskin invented quite a few interesting tests to measure tissue saturation, such as injecting a little blue die (perhaps iodine) and measuring how long it took for the skin color to return to normal. The shorter the interval, the more the tissues are saturated with ascorbate
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zucic

Re: ascorbic acid levels in animals

Post Number:#19  Post by zucic » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:09 am

trillian wrote:... then there's either something very odd about that OR that extra .1 or so
mg/dl is actually a huge number in real terms (but this would assume that it is exponential).

Owen already answered this post, but I will add this illustration:
The concentration of ascorbate in our blood is something like the number of
cars on a long highway section. If more cars are entering the highway each
minute, and simultaneously more cars are leaving at exits, it is still possible
that a total number of cars on this section will increase significantly.
The number of cars on this highway depends on both the number of cars
which enter and on the average speed!

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Post Number:#20  Post by trillian » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:36 pm

Well, 15mg vs .6 mg is 25 times more, so that pretty much answers that question.

-Sheryl

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Alternate Antioxidant Pathways

Post Number:#21  Post by Van Carman » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:51 pm

Has anyone tried the phenols pathway?If Codex is brought in you better try something.Thanks ,Van
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Opppps

Post Number:#22  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:03 pm

trillian wrote:Well, 15mg vs .6 mg is 25 times more, so that pretty much answers that question.

-Sheryl


Shouldn't rely on memory - 1.5 mg/dl (not 15 mg/dl)
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Re: Opppps

Post Number:#23  Post by trillian » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:11 pm

ofonorow wrote:
trillian wrote:Well, 15mg vs .6 mg is 25 times more, so that pretty much answers that question.

-Sheryl


Shouldn't rely on memory - 1.5 mg/dl (not 15 mg/dl)


Wel then it leads me back to my original question which was how on earth
would a human have nearly half the optimum blood level of ascorbic acid
without any supplementation. Something must be wrong with either the .7mg/dl
figure cited for the goat or the assertion that a human can have as much as
.6mg/dl without supplementation. (unless, the oral intake to blood level is
not a linear function).

zucic

Re: Opppps

Post Number:#24  Post by zucic » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:34 pm

trillian wrote:Wel then it leads me back to my original question which was how on earth
would a human have nearly half the optimum blood level of ascorbic acid
without any supplementation.


The level must be high because of ascorbate importance. But how?

Well, there is some recycling! And the mutation of the gene for uricase
probably followed quickly after GULO defect (perhaps even before)!
Uric acid could be a part of the rescue mechanism. It partialy replaces
ascorbic acid, leaving more ascorbic acid unused.

There is an interesting scanned page from Linus Pauling notebook #43
(page 131):
http://osulibrary.oregonstate.edu/specialcollections/rnb/43/43-131.html

5 July 1991:
"I've dictated a letter to Matthias, suggesting that we write a paper on
uric acid - a surrogate for ascorbate, and Dave talked with him over
the phone."

I am sure that he mentioned Matthias Rath.

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The .6mg/dl equates to the RDA

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:42 pm

Well, I need to get my copy of HTLLAFB out, but, if the numbers range from .1 mg/dl to 1.5 mg.dl, then .1 equates to 10 mg daily vitamin C input, .2 blood level to 20 mg input, up to the maximum of 1.5 mg/dl between at roughly 150 and 200 mg. A human with a .6 mg/dl blood level would be ingesting roughly 60 mg daily, or the RDA.
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Re: The .6mg/dl equates to the RDA

Post Number:#26  Post by trillian » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:27 am

ofonorow wrote:Well, I need to get my copy of HTLLAFB out, but, if the numbers range from .1 mg/dl to 1.5 mg.dl, then .1 equates to 10 mg daily vitamin C input, .2 blood level to 20 mg input, up to the maximum of 1.5 mg/dl between at roughly 150 and 200 mg. A human with a .6 mg/dl blood level would be ingesting roughly 60 mg daily, or the RDA.



Hmmmm, are you sure we are not moving decimal places again. If 150mg would result in 1.5mg/dl than what good would it be doing to consume 10 to 20 grams a day. Conversely, if .6 mg/dl was the result of 60 GRAMS a day consumption then there is clearly no way such a level could be reached without supplementation.

Regarding Uric acid, whatever it may do, clearly it cannot substitute for vit C otherwise all those sailors would not have died of scurvy.

Sheryl

zucic

Re: The .6mg/dl equates to the RDA

Post Number:#27  Post by zucic » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:56 am

trillian wrote:Regarding Uric acid, whatever it may do, clearly it cannot substitute for vit C otherwise all those sailors would not have died of scurvy.

Of course, but it may help to reach the high blood level with
the low daily input.

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Thanks for the Catch

Post Number:#28  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:04 am

Hmmmm, are you sure we are not moving decimal places again. If 150mg would result in 1.5mg/dl than what good would it be doing to consume 10 to 20 grams a day. Conversely, if .6 mg/dl was the result of 60 GRAMS a day consumption then there is clearly no way such a level could be reached without supplementation


Good catch, sorry :oops:

I am now holding the bible, HTLLAFB (paperback), and on pages 109 - 111 Pauling describes kidney function and serum levels after ingestion of various amounts. According to Pauling

For a small daily intake of ascorbic acid, up to about 150 mg, the concentration in the blood plasma is nearly proportional to the intake: this concentration is about 5 mg per liter for a daily intake of 50 mg, 10 mg per liter for 100 mg and 15 mg per liter for 150 mg. Above an intake of 150 mg per day the concentration in the blood increases mush less with increasing intake, reaching about 30 mg per liter for an intake of 10 g per day. (references given on page 109)

The reason for this change when the intake exceeds about 150 mg per day is that a larger maount of the vitamin then begins to be excreted in the urine...

This limit (pumping capacity of the kidneys) is reached when the concentration in the blood plasma equals about 14 mg per liter, corresponding to a daily intake of about 140 mg. (Linus Pauling, pg. 109-110, HTLLAFB)


So these are the real numbers. And, higher levels than 15 mg/dl can be achieved, albeit at a slower rate. It is at these higher levels that the enzyme systems that utilize ascorbate are activated.

Pauling points out that this 140 mg -> 14 mg/dl kidney threshold created the false idea that this level was the optimal, but Pauling argues that it is the MINIMUM intake.
Owen R. Fonorow
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Enough sulpher in humans allowing vitamin c recycling

Post Number:#29  Post by Van Carman » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:15 pm

Read Dr.Stone's article:The Genesis Of Medical Myths.This is an amazing feature of our body allowing production of an enzyme which does this job.Just a slight mention of this in the article.Certainly someone is interested in this.Sincerely,Van
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Sublingual Is Best

Post Number:#30  Post by Van Carman » Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:46 pm

Try this .Way more effective.Van
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