New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Discussion of the benefits and disadvantages of commercial and homemade (DIY) liposomal vitamin C

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#166  Post by pamojja » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:19 pm

As far as I know up to 10 gram of Soy lecithin per day have been used:

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetConte ... kiid=21680

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#167  Post by quintessential5 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:54 pm

As far as I know up to 10 gram of Soy lecithin per day have been used:

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=5b000b40-3809-4cb2-88a4-68bfd31b5c51&chunkiid=21680


Thanks! That's very helpful.

From that document:

European research has tended to use products concentrated to contain 90% phosphatidylcholine in lecithin, and the following dosages are based on that type of product. For psychological and neurological conditions, doses as high as 5 to 10 g taken three times daily have been used in studies. For liver disease, a typical dose is 350 to 500 mg taken three times daily; for high cholesterol, 500 to 900 mg taken three times daily has been tried.


So, it seems that even up to 30 g a day has been used in at least one study. Very cool!

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#168  Post by marush » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:08 am

qualityliposomalc wrote:I'm glad you liked the site.

If you end up making some liposomal C using the recipe please me know how it turns out!

Thanks,

Chris


My husband and I use your recipe and it turns out great, is very effective!

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#169  Post by skwoodwiva » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:32 pm

norma67 wrote:
OxC wrote:A guy on a Facebook discussion group has been doing some interesting lab tests. He claims to have measured encapsulation efficiency and particle sizing of this "Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C."


For who doesn't use FB, could some one be so kind to refer the results here? thanks


skwoodwiva wrote:Success!
I made an acceptable batch. I do not have any litmus left, but it tastes near to neutral.
I nixed the blender. N2 is still on hand as needed.
I tried Norma's recipe several times and I would see it trying to gel but always went flat and SOUR!!

I modified Norma's recipe:
30 g Now soya L
40 g Rum 40%
70 g Water
soaked 4 hr
raised to 49*C for ~ 10 min

2nd step
20 g Vit C (cassava based, I am an O! I never realized how bad corn based (LivOn) made me feel until now. I know that type A people do tolerate corn)
50 g water
Kept at 36*C but only ~ 2 min prior to,
pulling step 1 @45*C and dribbling step 2 into 1, stiring & etc, in a very chilly kitchen.
It gelled up nicely. I stored in fridg (HVACR guys have cold (35* F) fridg's). Then went shopping for the sonicator. I found a Harbor Freight 35 W baby. It needed lots of modding to work right.

The short 3 min duty cycle needed fixing: wimpy heat sinks, trashing the body, shorting the relay so the power plug is my power switch, among other things...(PM me for NON UL Mods). It works now for hours straight.
It went in the sonicator pan, naked, like some fab pudding all shiny.
So after blasting it for 45 min (in my fridg) the pudding went flat! It never went over 25*C, incl stiring.
It still had some body and the Ph did not change.

For dosing I just add all masses and divide by 20. I have a $20 250g 10mg resolution scale I bought at a Pot shop.

Edit,
If I never cool the batch the PH rises and thickens in 24 hrs.
If I keep it at 35* F it drops and thins out.

Thanks to Everybody and especially Norma


As I mentioned in some of my earlier posts, the recipe can vary due to different lecithin, alcohol grade, so I am glad you have found the solution that fits your ingredients and it is useful for you.


I had a private message asking for informations regarding the transition temperature, and since I think this could be useful to others, I will reply here in the topic.

The transition temperature is the moment of the transformation of the lecithin from the liquid state (liquid crystals) to the solid state or gel (liposomes).
The temprature can vary from the composition of the lechitin and the lipids added, so the first time I heated the lechitin compound, I tested the melting point of the one I have used.
Since the C vitamin is sensible to heating, I have indicated a temperature just above the the limit.
The lecithin compound can be heated to a higher temperature and then cooled down to about 42-45 °C, before adding the C vitamin ( in a way to protect it ) and then stirring until it forms the liposomes.

“Formation of liposomes is only possible, if the temperature of the sample is above the transition temperature. According to [2], the transition temperature of liposomes consisting of pure lipids is 41.4 °C, whereas lipids from natural origin such as lecithin containing fatty acid mixtures exhibit a broad transition range [3]. The upper limit for liposome formation is the Krafft point of lecithin, which is at a temperature of 58 °C [4]. Therefore the temperature range between 41.4 °C and 58.”
ref.: http://www.pharmtech.tu-bs.de/files/muegoy/MMuellerHalle0110.pdf

searching on google there are many other researches regarding the transition temperature of the liposomes.

Thanks Norma,

I can afford to buy Livon now...

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#170  Post by ISMA » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:13 pm

Dear Chris,

Why do you prefer lecithin granules than liquid lecithin?

For me it is difficult to find sunflower lecithin granules.

Thank you very.

Isma.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#171  Post by infinitey » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:00 pm

I'm in the US and the easiest source of ethyl alcohol would be from the convenience store, in the form of 70% ethyl rubbing alcohol. Unfortunately, one of the inactive ingredients is acetone, which I believe is added to make it "denatured." Is it still okay to use it to make lipo C?

I tried looking for non-denatured alcohol on eBay and found that they are rather expensive. If someone could mention a dependable source for the alcohol (I am over 21), it would be appreciated.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#172  Post by BrightSideOfLife » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:24 am

infinitey wrote:I'm in the US and the easiest source of ethyl alcohol would be from the convenience store, in the form of 70% ethyl rubbing alcohol. Unfortunately, one of the inactive ingredients is acetone, which I believe is added to make it "denatured." Is it still okay to use it to make lipo C?

I tried looking for non-denatured alcohol on eBay and found that they are rather expensive. If someone could mention a dependable source for the alcohol (I am over 21), it would be appreciated.

Rubbing Alcohol is isopropyl alcohol which is surgical spirit. It is denatured and should not be drunk as it is poisonous.

There are quite a lot of none denatured ethanol 70% and 95/96% ethanol on eBay UK. It is made in Bulgaria and some sellers post the link to the manufacturers website. It is meant for external usage as the website shows cutaneous and it is meant for sterilization of skin. It is for sale on ebay.com but looks like it ships from Bulgaria so it might need customs clearance. Shipping is quite expensive, especially for 4x1000ml & 6x1000 ml. See if you can find any ethanol none denatured on eBay. Some might sell it.

Some of the sellers claim it is Food grade but I seriously doubt that after reading the manufacturers website where it clearly states that it is for cutaneous (skin) usage.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1000ml-Ethanol-Ethyl-alcohol-95-Non-Denatured-Food-Grade-Pure-Alcohol/262512501446?hash=item3d1ef6e2c6:g:QQAAAOSwvg9XfKJF

I purchased some of the stuff from Bulgaria which is sold on eBay.co.uk. The seller told me that shipment was delayed because there was a quality problem and he needed to get a replacement. What I received seems quite decent. It's clear and has only a minor smell of wheat. I have not drunk any so cannot comment on the taste. I might add some water before sipping a small amount to check the taste before I use it.

Before these sellers began selling this ethanol from Bulgaria it was quite difficult and expensive finding high strength alcohol in the UK. The best that I have found is 95% vodka which costs just over £30 for 500ml which is 5.5x the price that I paid for the ethanol that I purchased. That is no longer in stock but it was when I last looked about a week ago.

Can you not get Everclear in your State?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)
It looks like Luxco makes a couple of other products which are very similar to Everclear.
Last edited by BrightSideOfLife on Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#173  Post by BrightSideOfLife » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:31 am

ISMA wrote:Dear Chris,

Why do you prefer lecithin granules than liquid lecithin?

For me it is difficult to find sunflower lecithin granules.

Thank you very.

Isma.

I have never seen sunflower lecithin granules, I have only ever seen it as powder or a really thick and difficult to use "liquid".

It depend upon where you are for availability. I purchased mine from Germany which was a lower price than in the UK. There did seem to be a shortage of Sunflower lecithin for quite some time and my previous supplier had no stock and even stock in the US was difficult to find.

Be aware that the PhosphatidylCholine content of Sunflower lecithin tends to be lower than Soya Lecithin so you would need to adjust the quantity to ensure sufficient PC.
https://shop-breinbauer.com/

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#174  Post by infinitey » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:35 am

BrightSideOfLife wrote:Can you not get Everclear in your State?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)
It looks like Luxco makes a couple of other products which are very similar to Everclear.

Thank you for your reply BrightSide. Sorry for the late reply; I suffer from chronic fatigue and only have random spurts of energy to be able to do anything.

I thought the denatured aspect was to make the alcohol distasteful, not poisonous. The label said ethyl rubbing alcohol, with isopropyl rubbing alcohol being a separate product. I didn't buy either of them. I'm in California where Everclear is illegal.

I found an eBay US seller who sells medical grade 95% ethanol, so I plan to buy some of it. But I also have IBS and candida issues, and have become concerned that the alcohol will have a negative impact on me. Will the alcohol be just as effective in creating liposomes if I were to use half the recommended amount when making lipo C? I realize the author of Quality Liposomal Vitamin C says alcohol is an important ingredient.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#175  Post by BrightSideOfLife » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:45 pm

infinitey wrote:
BrightSideOfLife wrote:Can you not get Everclear in your State?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)
It looks like Luxco makes a couple of other products which are very similar to Everclear.

Thank you for your reply BrightSide. Sorry for the late reply; I suffer from chronic fatigue and only have random spurts of energy to be able to do anything.

I thought the denatured aspect was to make the alcohol distasteful, not poisonous. The label said ethyl rubbing alcohol, with isopropyl rubbing alcohol being a separate product. I didn't buy either of them. I'm in California where Everclear is illegal.

I found an eBay US seller who sells medical grade 95% ethanol, so I plan to buy some of it. But I also have IBS and candida issues, and have become concerned that the alcohol will have a negative impact on me. Will the alcohol be just as effective in creating liposomes if I were to use half the recommended amount when making lipo C? I realize the author of Quality Liposomal Vitamin C says alcohol is an important ingredient.

It's been a while since I last came into this forum, I am busy doing research and trying to work out what will work best.

IBS would most likely react to changes in what you consume due to Increased Digestive Permeability Syndrome aka Leaky Gut. It is caused by an infection which is NOT in the colon, it is in the stomach! It could be linked directly to your CFS which usually affects the right transverse colon. Being in the stomach makes it far easier to treat but they are biofilm protected and can be extremely resistant. I came across a site linked below that details how to make liposomal essential oils of which some have very strong antimicrobial effects. Quorum Sensing Inhibition does make it easier to eliminate the biofilm and Efflux Pump Inhibitors help prevent the micro-organisms from eliminating the antimicrobials.

I also suffer from CFS and find that not changing what I consume causes far less problems for me. Whenever I add anything new I suffer extreme exhaustion, otherwise things are less debilitating.

Alcohol is important for the forming of liposomes therefore I would not reduce the amount you use. It could be the difference between making an emulsion and liposomes.

http://www.eytonsearth.org/earthcures/how-to-make-liposomal-essential-oils-at-home-ultrasonic-method-tutorial-leos/

If you have not already found phoenixrising forum then here is the link http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#176  Post by ekaitz » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:36 pm

BrightSideOfLife wrote:I also suffer from CFS and find that not changing what I consume causes far less problems for me. Whenever I add anything new I suffer extreme exhaustion, otherwise things are less debilitating.


Do you know which is the root of your condition? CFS is a very vague term used for multiple things. By what I read, there are two main types, the "softer" adrenal inssuficiency which may relate to hormone depletion and imbalance, hypocortisolism, hypothyroidism.. etc, and the "harder" myalgic encephalomielitis, in which parasite infection is said to be involved and inmune system over reactive or seriously compromised.

If you suspect the first, have you got tested for thyroid, adrenal hormones, testosterone, 25OH status?

How much liposomed C do you take daily?

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#177  Post by Kina » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:36 am

Have tried the qualityliposomalc method of Liposomal VC production.
However accidentally allowed the bath temperature to exceed 40C - happened so quickly.
However that may have been fortuitous, if the transition temp of P.Choline is 41c.

In anycase tested it taking 30 grams/day in divided doses. Though it tasted acidic it produced no problems, except for when I upped a dose to 10 grams too close to a previous dose. So I guess accumulation residual Ascorbic Acid caused the - monetary diarrhea. In the end consumed the 161 grams without problem - except trying to swallow the stuff. I found drinking some cream first, to line the throat and esophagus and then washing down the product helped. The doses where bigger than you would normally take, but I was testing the liposomal nature of the process.

So the process must have worked fine if I could consume 161 grams of it with only one short bout of the runs.

Before I go on I want to make a note of the difference between the LivOn Lipid ingredient and Lecithin powder/granules we use.
NOTE 1:
Lecithin Powder – NOW brand contains
P.choline 46% .
P.Inositol 33%
P. Ethanolamine 20%

Which is a bit different from the granules makeup, which has one less component.

NOTE 2:
LivOn/Zhang Patent relies on P.Choline I believe.

NOTE 3:
The other lipids P.choline P.insotol P. Ethanolamine are also used in liposome creation, namely for cancer drug delivery. P.Choline was noted as being less stable, and a mixture of the lipids a better delivery mechanism for the cancer agent.

Thus the mixture of lipids in the NOW powder may represent a better outcome for stable Liposome production. And the Powder maybe better than the granules since it contains one extra lipid variety.

This notation I found in one study regarding cancer drug Cisplatin.
... Generally, liposomes are prepared from phosphatidylcholine (PC). However, liposomes consisting of 100% PC exhibit poor membrane fusion, cellular uptake and selective targeting capacities [4]. To overcome these limitations, efforts have focused on preparing liposomes from mixtures of PC and other phospholipids, such as phosphatidylethanolamine (PE). ...


I note one of the other method mentioned before (Norma67) which I summarise underneath - BUT also another method mentioned in the LivOn/Zhang Patent - shown at Example 1 On page 12 here: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 1280A1.pdf


Most of the methods don't vary too much, but may improve the percentage of encapsulation.

I will try both these methods shortly.

Method Norma67

1. Combine
Room Temperature
20 g lecithin - 0.8 g tocopherol - 16 g alcohol (ethanol 94°)
33 ml distilled water

2. Soak 4-12 hours – becomes milky

3. Combine
Room Temperature – separate container
20 g ascorbic acid - 110 ml distilled water

4. Heat
Heat Lecithin in bath 42-45C
Remove from bath

5. Add slowly with stirring
Ascorbic Acid

6. Shake in rotary fashion
As thickens
Room temperature – becomes gel

7. Refrigerate
2 hours

8. Sonicate
Ultrasonic bath 30 mins



Method Zhang Patent as Per Example 1 on Page 12. (seems pretty simple - but who knows)

1. Lecithin (phospholipon = P.choline) 97gm (18%) - Alcohol 98% 56.3gm - Room temperature

2. Separately (Na) Ascorbic Acid 109.5gm (22%) – water 251gm (49%) –EDTA 26.4mg – Room temperature pH 6.3

3. Add slowly Lecithin to (Na) Ascorbic Acid – frequent vortexing with mixer 15 minutes – Room temperature

4. Thicken to gel with additive - if desired.

Requires no heat, no sonication.
You can buy EDTA as a 'supplement'
EDTA is..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylened ... plications

VERBATIM from Patent - Example 1
Example 1
Preparation of Sodium Ascorbate Entrapped Lipo SOS
0140. 97g Phospholipon50IP (a non-GMO vesicle-form
ing phosphatidylcholine lipid available from Lipoid) was
solubilized in 56.3 g 200 proof alcohol at room temperature.
Care was taken to ensure that all lipids were completely
solubilized and no undissolved lipid remained. 109.5 g. sodium ascorbate and 26.4 mg. EDTA was separately solubi
lized in 251 g reverse osmosis-treated water at room tempera
ture with normal agitation. The pH of the Naascorbate-EDTA
solution was adjusted to 6.3 The sodium ascorbate-EDTA
solution was filtered with a 0.2 um filter to remove dust
particles and other contaminants. Streams of the lipid solution
were slowly injected into the vitamin solution with continu
ous vortexing with a mixer. After all the lipid solution was
added, lipid hydration was allowed to continue about 15
minutes with frequent mixing. At this point, the liposomes
had formed in a smooth, translucent fluid.
0141 2.2 g xanthan gum (available from Sigma-Ald
rich R) and 1.38 g TweenTM 80 (available from Sigma Ald
rich R) were added to thicken the solution into a gel. The
resulting liposome solution was transparent with a honey-like
color.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#178  Post by Kina » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:42 pm

And as another experiment to be done.

The acidic taste most get with home made liposomes might be reduced by reducing the Ascorbic Acid concentration used, as it appears concentrations are exceeding the lipids ability encapsulate them all.

To have a more palatable product, would mean lowering final mg/ml AA, but increase the ability of a person to consume more of it, and lower gut gas creation from excess AA.

I will use an amended version of the qualityliposomalc method with same Ratios again but half AA, to see if that removes most of the Acidic taste.
Amendment would be - seeing that Transition temperatures of the lipids in the powder are around 45C will use that in the preparation of Lecithin in alcohol as seen in other Lab processes, separately before adding to the AA solution in water.

Have almost finished my current batch of LVC. Will start on the three experiments, in reduced amounts to see the best outcome.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#179  Post by BrightSideOfLife » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:02 am

Those are some fascinating experiments Kina.

I did read some negative information about EDTA where it has been found to affect the bodies cells causing sort of spikes/protrusions in the cell surface. I think those might of been, my memory is not very brilliant, red blood cells. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find that info again. I think that there was an image showing the effect on the cells. I do have some EDTA and have used it to help biofilm elimination which is why I did some research on it, unfortunately I did not bookmark the link. doh!

Ascorbic acid is acidic as might be expected. Any none encapsulated AA should react with an alkaline such as sodium bicarbonate causing a fizzing which should indicate an approximate quantity of none encapsulated AA. I have seen people mention that they get bowel tolerance issues with their lipo C so it does indicate that it was not fully encapsulated/liposomal therefore your ideas do seem reasonable.

I do not think that granular lecithin should be any different in terms of lipid content than powered lecithin. I do only use powdered lecithin myself because it is less trouble than granules but I would not expect granules to be any different. Maybe the product did not give a full breakdown of the included lipids?

Ultra Sonication can cause quite a dramatic rise in temperature which might also be affected by ultrasonic power and any heating of the water would need to take that into account with a lower heating temperature. The temperature can only increase and there is no method to lower the temperature except for disabling the sonication or maybe adding ice as you suggest but that adds to the water content.

The research paper below concerns vitamin C stability, mainly in foods rather than AA but AA is added therefore something might be usable from it. Fructose and Glucose is meant to improve stability in the 24–45°C range. Interestingly pH affects stability with lower pH's being more stable than higher pH's. "It degrades significantly faster at pH 7–8 than pH 3–5". Therefore increasing the pH might be helpful ie citric acid or similar. Therefore sodium ascorbate might not be a beneficial form to use because it's pH is likely to be higher. pH paper can check the pH with a tiny sample and is fairly inexpensive, I still have a couple of rolls of it left. Heat and oxygen can cause AA to become DHAA and can become 2,3-diketogulonic acid which has no vitamin activity, see the research paper for details. Oxygen concentration is the prime factor in vit c degradation therefore anything which increases the oxygen in the mixture might not be helpful. Therefore blending might be a bad idea unless a degas function helps remove oxygen from the mixture BEFORE vit c is added slowly with as little surface disruption as possible. I have had a brief look at methods to remove oxygen but they seem out of the reach of the average person and none remove all the oxygen ie Nitrogen purging.

DOI: 10.1016/j.foodchem.2016.10.012
http://sci-hub.hk/10.1016/j.foodchem.2016.10.012
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.foodchem.2016.10.012

These videos are some basics on liposomes which I found interesting and informative.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04SP8Tw3htE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz-qDE3Go4

I will be interested in what you discover ;)

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#180  Post by Kina » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:43 am

From what I can see the P.Inositol is not in the granules, however the ration of P.choline in the granules and powder is the same.
The addition of P.Inositol should be an advantage in providing and additional liposome. But don't know the phase transition temps for it.

The Zhang - Expirment #1 as expected didn't work as there was no heating of either the lipid, or agent to the transition temp of the lipid.

Also surprisingly the other didn't work too well either, despite following the instructions exactly, include adding 0.8gm tocopheral. I have accurate scales that measure mg and ml, and a good thermometer and sonicator that works fine. Maybe a different pH of the solution made the diff.

Or the difference can only have been the lecithin used.
I tried reheating cooling and resonicating - made no difference - very acidic taste.

In frustration - since both experiments were a lost cause - threw them together in a pot on the stove, heated to nice heat, well above 45C.
And Lo, in the fridge got a nic thick gel, with little VC taste. LoL Not sure if the VC was destroyed ( i doubt it) or the temperature used should be well above the transition temp - when using mixed lipids I note other experiments on patents used p.choline 100% I think. I am think the transition/phase change temp should be exceeded somewhat.

Am in the process of trying that experiment again with Half the Ascorbic Acid, thinking that it is wishful thinking to expect 100% encapsulation rate.

There is another method that can be used - but at home the amount per batch is limited. As you create a lipid film around the bowl, or saucepan - and when dried/cooled - you introduce the agent liquid that has to be above the phase transition temp of the lipid film.


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