Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:09 am

Hi Owen,

I'm a physician, clinically practice western medicine, but taking care of my fiance with severe MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivities) using alternative medicine. I've recently started performing IV vitamin C and encountered Cathcart's protocol and saw his video and read his instructions. But I still have several questions regarding this. Is there an easier way than using sterile glass bottles which you would have to sterilize with an ?autoclave to make the stock solution?

I would greatly appreciate your help in this matter. Would it be possible that you call me? Or is there anyone you can refer me to who's currently using Cathcart's protocol.

Thank you,

T. L , MD


The method described in his lecture/paper is the one used by Cathcart's nurses to produce a stock solution that could be stored in a refrigerator, and extracted as need to make IVs.

As Cathcart stated in the lecture, and also writes the first step is to sterilize the bottle.

Sterilize a 500 cc IV bottle along with a funnel, the rubber stopper, and a spoon.

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/ivc/civprep.pdf

After that, he states.

I do not worry about the sterility of this because this solution is very bacteriocidal. Perhaps it should be filtered to get out particulate matter but I have never seen this to be a problem.


Dr Levy adds:
We pass the final solution from one IV bottle to another vacuum IV bottle in an IV line through a
millipore filter. Probably not essential, but no doubt gives better legal protection than medical protection if any problems or infection were to arise. An alternative would be to use a millipore filter IV line with each administration to the patient.


This is the procedure that Cathcart (his nurses) used for decades without incident or problems.

I am not expert. My doctor orders the sodium ascorbate from a compounding pharmacist. They will sell for $100 plus shipping. 500 CC container (with 250 CC of sodium ascorbate.) Same as the stock solution Cathcart described.
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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:15 am

Owen,

Thanks for the quick reply. Reading the information on the web makes me think that you are an expert in this matter.

I did speak with [the pharmacy you mentioned] and placed my first order.

She sells the Cathcart's stock solution with and without EDTA.

Do you think it's ok for me to get the EDTA-free solution and store it for a while, despite Dr. Cathcart's instructions of using the solution within a couple of days if you don't use EDTA. I prefer no additives, esp EDTA since I thought it also has a chelating effect, which would not be good for my fiance who has severe multiple chemical sensitivity and heavy metal toxicity. His MCS is primarily due to mercury poisoning from his almagams in addition to other things. Thus the reason for the IV Vitamin C before/during/after amalgam removal. He needs all the help he can get.

Also, do you know the source of their sodium ascorbate, ie, is it similar to what is available on Vit C Foundation, it being not from China, not from corn, and GMO-free?

Last question, do you know if giving a dose of 50-60g of ascorbate in 500cc sterile water is not too high of an "osmolarity" concentration? Or is it because the neutral pH it is okay? Or is it better to use 1000cc sterile water?

Thanks again for your time and expertise.

T.


There is a doctor who has been trying to get several compounding pharmacies to use the DSM Quali-C sodium ascorbate (non Chinese) and he may now have another compounding pharmacy to point you to. I know that any compounding pharmacy's vitamin C is excellent, but like you, I prefer the DSM Quali-c.

My doctor purchases the sodium ascorbate WITHOUT EDTA, but for the reasons Cathcart describes, if you plan to store it for a while, then the chelator make sense as a preservative. (I note from the package insert on the main injectible being sold (BioNiche) that EDTA is listed on their label in the list of ingredients.) It is a matter of time before use, and not necessary if you plan to use the sodium ascorbate right away.

I will double check with Dr. Levy on the "osmolarity" issue, and add that to our writeup
on Cathcart's procedure to administer IV/C. I am trying to remember what the standard
size IV bag is, because that is what my doctor uses. He only used two bags when I
had a 100 g IV. I know I have had 50 g in a standard bag without a problem.
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® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:19 am

Rereading your last message and it raised a red flag.

His MCS is primarily due to mercury poisoning from his almagams in addition to other things. Thus the reason for the IV Vitamin C before/during/after amalgam removal. He needs all the help he can get.



Given this, you probably want to be careful administering sodium ascorbate.

Here is the thing. The different effects between the "hot" sodium ascorbate (per Cathcart) and the "cold" vitamin C of BioNiche (buffered ascorbic acid per USP) is startling. (But apparently well known to alt docs experienced with IV/C. :x

As a rule, you should at least slow the sodium ascorbate drip for the last 30-45 minutes, to avoid the patients feeling a toxicity or "herxheimer" reaction. Even Klenner wrote that he gave follow-up vitamin C injections for this reason.

Depending on the type of vitamin C and the speed with which it is administered determines the "Herxheimer".

So, my doc routinely uses the "cold" (Bioniche") injectible after amalgam removal. It is generally soothing, and we think this is because it simply flushes the toxins out of the system.

The "hot" sodium ascorbate seems to have the ability to pull additional toxins out of cells, especially when administered at a fast drip. If it isn't slowed, the patients will have a strong reaction to the toxins still in their system.

For someone with Chemical Sensitivities, I believe the correct approach is probably to use the cold BioNiche a few times. To clear the system, then before/during the next amalgam removal, use the hot Cathart sodium ascorbate, but always slowing it down towards the end. Then I would give a 25 g bag of Bioniche after the amalgam removal - to flush the toxins and minimize the patient's adverse reaction.

We tried to cover this at the following topic:
http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9512
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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:42 pm

Dr. Levy's answer to the osmolarity question.

Hi Owen,


My formula is pretty simple, stemming from the fact that the 500 mg/cc vitamin C solution as sold in the 50 cc, 25 gram vials can be given direct IV push, if need be. Therefore, there is only really the concern, in my opinion, that a solution would be too dilute, not too concentrated, as more than 500 mg/cc of ascorbate cannot readily put into solution.


So, generally, I put anywhere from 50 to 150 grams of vitamin C into a 500 cc bag of sterile water. If less than 50 grams is going to be given, such as 25 grams, I think that is best to put into a 250 cc bag of sterile water (or even less volume if desired). Generally, as well, nothing needs to be taken out of the bag for up to 100 grams of vitamin C added. When adding from 125 to 150 grams of vitamin C (250 to 300 cc of added volume), it can be easier to take out 50 to 100 cc of the sterile water first. For 100 grams or more, there is nothing wrong with putting it into a 1000 cc sterile water IV bag as well, especially for the more sensitive patient with smaller veins.


Hope this helps,


Dr. Levy
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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol - "osmolarity"

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:04 am

Thanks for the response. The reason why I asked this question, according to the pharmacist at McGuff and Wellness Pharmacy, they recommended placing only 25g ascorbic acid into 500cc sterile water bag because of the osmolarity calculated to >500mOsm, as compared to "normal" 310mOsm. (My terminology and exact numbers may be incorrect). Thus, if one place 50g into 500cc sterile water, the osmolarity would be 900-1000mOsm, which they do not recommend. So, I question if 50g should rather be placed in a 1000cc sterile water bag. Also, when I did increase the dose to 50g into 500cc sterile water for my fiance, he described more "burning pain" in his vein in addition to increase discomfort and headache. However, I'm not sure if this is a Herxheimer reaction. And rather using commercial ascorbic acid, would the Cathcart's Vit C solution not have this reaction?

Best regards,
TL


I don't understand any recommendation to limit a 500cc bag to 25 mg, as Dr. Levy pointed out, he has experience with "pushing" the 50% solution itself directly into veins.

People would be in their IV chairs forever!

Re: pain in veins. My interest really began with reports of IV/C vein damage (and explanations from physicians experience with IV/C) that the ascorbic acid IV (buffered) can hurt veins, and I suspect the pH is too low. The pH of the Catchart sodium ascorbate is over 7. He claims he never experienced a problem hurting veins. So not Herxheimer. I don't know how the veins react to pure water - since that is about what you were giving at the low concentration. (I am not sure what is wrong with that formula)

However the discomfort and headache does sound like a typical Herx reaction, and the reason for either a mild (Bioniche) infustion afterward, or slowing down the drip for the final hour.
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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:12 am

Yes, I would like to learn how to make Cathcart's IV/C stock solution on my own in order to assure that I know exactly what goes in it. Not sure if EDTA would be good for my fiance because of his severe MCS and heavy metal/mercury toxicity.


I can see Dr. [deleted]'s point. If toxins are being pulled from within cells (a function of GSH, and supposedly high C creates more GSH in cells) then using EDTA to glob onto what it can and pull it into the urine makes a lot of sense. I cannot see the harm in adding a chelator.

There is argument whether vitamin C itself can "chelate" mercury", but I have read a chemistry book that says it can, weakly, and for sure it can neutralized oxidized mercury, making it practically inert.
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VanCanada

Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#7  Post by VanCanada » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:33 am

ofonorow wrote:There is argument whether vitamin C itself can "chelate" mercury", but I have read a chemistry book that says it can, weakly, and for sure it can neutralized oxidized mercury, making it practically inert.

These points have been covered before on this discussion board. Please provide scientific references for these statements.

I feel the Vitamin C community is poorly served by statements of misinformation that are not supported by the evidence we have from biochemistry.

If the book you are referring to is the same one as you quoted before, please explain how your in vitro evidence can possibly apply to human subjects in real world situations?

Aren't you really comparing apples with oranges here? Thx.


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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:16 am

We have gone through this before. Thanks for stating your opinion (which is?)

A UK book on the biochemistry of ascorbic acid reports that it has been cited before http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8043&p=21686&hilit=Partridge#p21686and http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8043&p=21686&hilit=Partridge#p21686 and when I asked you whether it was a chelator - your answer was "it is both"?

These arguments reminds me of the definition of insanity..

we'll cite it again.


Vitamin C forms complexes with metals, even those which it is capable of reducing, such as iron or copper. It is a potentially bidentate ligand...
... the complexes formed are weaker than they should be in comparison to the complexes of similar chelating ligands...
... such complexes are formed in alkaline solution.


Quoted from the book Vitamin C: Its Chemistry and Biochemistry published by the Royal Society of Chemistry (UK) on page 133 of the paperback, under the section title Reactions with Metal Ions, by Michael B Davis, John Austin, and David A Partridge


and while I note Cutler's response (That C is "not" a chelator of heavy metals), and I am willing to take look at his references/experiments (where are they?). Bottom line, I also say IT DOESN"T MATTER, because as Dr. Levy pointed out in CURING THE INCURABLE - not giving vitamin C during amalgam removal would be criminal. (I am paraphrasing of course) because of ascorbates ability to neutralize the highly toxic oxidized mercury! Is there anybody out there saying not to give vitamin C when you are chelating mercury? References also give before.
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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#9  Post by tdl3 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:09 pm

Hi Owen,

Follow-up on Cathcart solution:

The Compounder uses sodium ascorbate from Letco and I spoke with one of their pharmacist who states that their sodium ascorbate powder is from corn, made in China, and is not non-GMO. So I'm wary about using their Cathcart solution. I guess your doctor uses it without any problems?

I spoke with a pharmacist at McGuff who sales 50% sodium ascorbate solution in smaller vials of 100ml (I think). However, their source is not from China and not from corn, but is described "synthetic" so is it made in the laboratory? Is it a good source for the Cathcart solution?

I'm waiting to hear regarding the Florida pharmacy that will produce the Cathcart solution using the Vit C foundation sodium ascorbate. Any word if that's available yet?

I was also wandering what is the source of the sodium ascorbate from the Vit C Foundation, ie is it syntetic or cassava/beet derived since it's not from corn?

Thanks,
T.L.

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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#10  Post by tdl3 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:05 pm

Also,

I made my own Cathcart solution using the sodium ascorbate from Vit C Foundation with the help of a magnetic stirrer and without EDTA. The solution's color is quite more orange/rusty than the solution from Compounder.com, which is pale yellow as Cathcart describes in his instructions. What does this mean? Is The Vit C foundation's' sodium ascorbate more oxidized? Can I still use this stock solution? Should I purchase a different sodium ascorbate?

Thanks,
TL

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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:54 am

From your description - it sounds more concentrated - orange.

I have wondered about the color - Cathcart mentions that it is yellow when mixed, and left it as a clump (unmixed) at the bottom of the pre-made bags until use.

The bioniche "ascorbic acid" for injection is white/clear!? Why?

My doctor could not believe there would be a difference between the BioNiche and Cathcart (made from the pharmacy) and was surprised, to say the least, at the clinical difference as measured by Herx heimer response. (He even started a project to have a lab find out exactly what is happening because he suspects the by-products are particularly potent).

Back to the orange color - email me a picture. Double check the amounts. Perhaps start with 250 CC per 1000 CCs (instead of 500 CC of sodium ascorbate)
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Re: Questions on Cathcart's protocol

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:57 am

tdl3 wrote:Hi Owen,

Follow-up on Cathcart solution:

The Compounder uses sodium ascorbate from Letco and I spoke with one of their pharmacist who states that their sodium ascorbate powder is from corn, made in China, and is not non-GMO. So I'm wary about using their Cathcart solution. I guess your doctor uses it without any problems?


Thanks,
T.L.


Yes, and a few of his patients who used to be Cathcart's patients, and were unhappy, to say the least with the BioNiche injectibles. I believe that they are now happy with the Compounding pharmacy's sodium ascorbate, which is apparently is more like what they remember.
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