Infant Reflux (Morphed into where is AA absorbed)

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musashie
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Infant Reflux (Morphed into where is AA absorbed)

Post Number:#1  Post by musashie » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:35 am

Has anyone any info on Infant Reflux and Sodium Ascorbate. Our 4month old has reflux. Wife dairy, wheat free etc etc.. Baby on 150mg of SA divided into 3 seperate doses. Wife on 6-7000mg/day. I understand stomach acid strength compared to vit c is alot stronger. I am wondering though could the SA be contributing towards the reflux?.. When you have tried so much the natural nature is to look at things you do not feel are the problem.. but look you must, just in case.

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:46 am

What are the symptoms? So 50 mg at a time... Our personal experience is with ascorbic acid, not sodium ascorbate.

Even ascorbic acid "buffers" the stomach (is a higher pH than the normal stomach contents) and we know that ascorbic acid quickly gets absorbed into the blood stream through the stomach wall (until someone comes up with a better explanation.) Sodium ascorbate behaves differently. Why not switch to ascorbic acid and see if the problem clears up?

Good parents to be supplementing vitamin C!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#3  Post by musashie » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:11 pm

Symptoms = finding it difficult to sleep due to wind ... gurgling in stomach etc...Spewing a little. As mentioned wifes diet is really good. Just thought i would submit question here and check if anyone had simalar thought... Yes 50mg doses. I initially was using the 100mg for every month of age but I feel this was too high as my wife is also supplementing. At present we are giving 3 x 50mg/day. If we miss a dose thats fine. The plan is to get up to A Saul reccommendation of 1000mg for every year of age but we will go a little slower before increasing. I have mentioned to my wife about the AA instead in the past my only concern is the bitterness, but we will try it....

I will mention as a matter of interest we used the Klennar Protocol during pregnancy. A little higher dose. 8000mg/day first 3months.12000mg 2nd 3months and 15000mg final 3 months. Wife 38, her Ist pregnancy. During labour she consumed 70,000mg of SA. From entering hospital to delivery 4hrs15min. She did wait at home before going in. No drugs used of any type.No oxygen used either. No tears , No stitches. Mid-Wives, I would say, very surprised by the whole delivery judging by their reactions...

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:48 am

Sounds like my wife's experience, now almost 30 years ago..

Again, the reason for ascorbic acid is that it is absorbed through the stomach wall into the blood stream inside of 15 minutes after the dose :!:
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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:41 pm


OWEN SAID:
Again, the reason for ascorbic acid is that it is absorbed through the stomach wall into the blood stream inside of 15 minutes after the dose .


Really???
Maybe if you’re a Rainbow Trout you could get about 27% of the V-C taken into the blood stream But if your of the human variety there are no V-C transporters located in the stomach and the only absorption there is into the isthmus region were it’s used as a buffer. Other then that V-C is absorbed in the small intestines!

https://www.nutritionfactors.com/factor ... -digestion
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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am

Is this the same johnwen? The one who followed all our bioavailability experiments?? The experiments with the "glucose" meter that ended up showing vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) enters the blood stream IMMEDIATELY and that the unexpected effect is over in 15 to 20 minutes. (And that sodium ascorbate behaves as you suggest.)

Dr. Hickey believes that there is a pH gradient at work that "transports" organic acids through the stomach wall. No GLUT or SVCT receptors necessary. IF you remember, we tried to see whether there was some absorption from the mucous membranes in the mouth, but that experiment failed. Not only did our experiments uncover something previously unknown, but they went a long way to clarify and explain what Robert Cathcart had found over his long years (and 14000 patients), i.e., that ascorbic acid had a different, more profound "ascorbate effect" than the mineral ascorbates.

So, given it was vitamin C being measured, and all indications are that it was, then Dr. Hickey's explanation is the best hypothesis for the data we uncovered. :-)

And the beauty of these small experiments - they can be easily repeated.
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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#7  Post by Johnwen » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:08 am

To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:02 am

Was that a yes? Is that you johnwen, or perhaps your son or something?

About the Author:

Ashish is a Science graduate (Bachelor of Science) from Punjabi University (India). He spends a lot of time watching movies, and an awful lot more time discussing them. He likes Harry Potter and the Avengers, and obsesses over how thoroughly Science dictates every aspect of life… in this universe, at least.


Hickey and Roberts did not come up with this idea when they saw our results. They mentioned the "force" created by the high stomach acid that literally pushes "small organic acids" through the stomach wall in one of their two C books, either ASCORBATE: THE SCIENCE OF VITAMIN C, or RIDIDCULOUS DIETARY ALLOWANCE. They too were trying to come up with an explanation for Cathcart's (and other) reports of high dose ascorbic acid being effective orally.

And as Hickey points out in our paper, even though ascorbic acid buffers stomach acid (because AA has a higher pH) there is still a net effect pushing the 10 grams of AA into the blood stream.

During our experiments, Hickey suggested doing the experiments with Betain HCL - to keep the stomach more acidic, but it was too much to try on an empty stomach. In theory, this approach would push even more ascorbic acid taken by mouth into the blood stream long before it would have a change to reach the lower GI tract.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#9  Post by Johnwen » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:56 pm

Oh it’s me :D and were still on this stomach absorption thing which we did a few years back ! :?
The stomach is like a blender only instead of a blade it uses acid to mush everything up so it can move thru the intestines.
The only non-pharmaceutical item that can pass thru the lining into the blood from the stomach is alcohol. This is also buffered by the amount of food in the stomach which will absorb some of the alcohol and becomes part of the mush!
Since we take most V-C as a mix with water, pills needs to be broken down in the stomach first!
Now, when there is more fluids in the stomach then is needed for mushing, the fluids pass directly to the small intestines were the stomach acid is neutralized and absorption of the nutrients and fluids begins. This process of absorbing the nutrients in fluids can take up to about 5 minutes from the time it hit’s the stomach till it reaches the small intestines.
Once in the small intestine the V-C is absorbed by the brush boarders of the lining of the intestine and transported into the blood stream where it is met with the V-C transporters and taken into the body, the remainder which hasn’t been attached is filtered in the kidneys where it’s either held in storage or excreted out.
Total time before you feel the need to go is about 20-40 minutes where the excess V-C hit’s the swirling water of the toilet!

NOTE; I eliminated the changes and regenerations that V-C goes thru in this process for clarity of the digestive and absorption process.

So if you want V-C to enter the system thru the stomach just mix it with Ever Clear (190!!) and drink it on a empty stomach. However! I don’t think you would appreciate the results of doing this!! I also really wouldn’t advise it!!

Jejunum: Vitamins and simple sugars (from carbohydrates), and amino acids (from proteins) are absorbed in the next 11 feet – that’s right: feet – of the small intestine. Water soluble vitamins, like Vitamin C and the B-complex vitamins, go directly into the blood stream. These vitamins are flushed out of the body quickly, and need to be taken more frequently, either in our food or as supplements. Fat soluble vitamins, like Vitamins A, D, and E – all great antioxidants – are packaged into fats in this part of the small intestine.

https://wholelifebalance.com/digestion- ... n-meister/
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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#10  Post by musashie » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:59 am

50mg of AA.Large watery blow out shortly afterwards.Bact to the SA for the time being anyway.

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:23 am

noted the 50 mg AA.

To johnwen's theory:

The only non-pharmaceutical item that can pass thru the lining into the blood from the stomach is alcohol.


Again, Dr. Hickey would disagree :-) Small organic acids (non pharmaceuticals) can be transported across the stomach wall based on the pH gradient.. The lower the stomach pH, the higher the force.. I would like to find the reference... on my list...

Your theory/explanation assumes that sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid travels into the intestines at different speeds. Unlikely
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#12  Post by Johnwen » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:07 pm

SORRY, It’s NOT A THEORY , it’s a FACT!

Here’s a quick run down w/link (short and sweet)!

Absorption in the Stomach
The stomach absorbs very few substances, although small amounts of certain lipid-soluble compounds can be taken up, including aspirin, other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, and ethanol.

Notably, these substances are also well-recognized causes of gastric irritation and their use (especially overuse) is commonly associated with development of gastritis and gastric ulcers.


http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pa ... bsorb.html

I look forward to seeing your LINKS on this theory!!
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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#13  Post by musashie » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:46 am

I feel like I held a little get together for some guests and am now relegated to watching the show... Theory , fantastic but what about real life application guys..... in the trenches... I could share some real life stories regarding modern medicine... One even involved me contacting Dr Paul Marik, I digress, In real life unfortunately we/I actually have to try things rather than relying on the incompetent, mercenary attitudes of modern healthcare...Trial and degrees of error. Hard to know where to post Q on the forum some time. But seeing as I have an audience at present I have a quick question. What is the largest single IM dose of SA either of you have administered. I will be going down the IV route with some training but will start on the IM pretty soon.... Any opinions, answers, experiences??. Practical real world examples guys. Because I am no longer prepared to be in a position surrounded by physicians, 4 the last time, arguing for vit c therapy only to watch people die... so I will take it upon myself to be capable of doing it. IM is pretty straightforward. But just curious regarding dose. I am thinking 500mg -1000mg, maybe 2000mg is probable realistic...

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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#14  Post by Johnwen » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:54 am

There is a lot of considerations one must use in determining the proper dosage of any substance given IM or IV. Such as a persons weight, the reason for administering the substance, general health, allergies, etc.
So to give advice on dosage would be a shot in the dark as to what is right for any given person without knowing the circumstances that would be right for the individual. Or too correct a undisclosed problem!
The most common medical use of V-C IM is to aid in wound healing however there are other conditions that could be addressed also.
So really the best advice I or anyone else could give you is to read this link and make the call yourself, although no one could guarantee that you won’t experience any side effects IM V-C is a GRAS (Generally recognized as safe) so just be careful!

https://www.drugs.com/pro/ascorbic-acid-injection.html

As far as IV it should always be done under the guidance of a Physician who has experience with the product being administered.
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Re: Infant Reflux

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:04 pm

Johnwen wrote:SORRY, It’s NOT A THEORY , it’s a FACT!

Here’s a quick run down w/link (short and sweet)!

Absorption in the Stomach
The stomach absorbs very few substances, although small amounts of certain lipid-soluble compounds can be taken up, including aspirin, other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, and ethanol.

Notably, these substances are also well-recognized causes of gastric irritation and their use (especially overuse) is commonly associated with development of gastritis and gastric ulcers.


http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pa ... bsorb.html

I look forward to seeing your LINKS on this theory!!


Nothing to be sorry about.. Even the ideas about gravity are only theories... The way to create a credible fact is via repeatable experiments. Where are the experiments?

Here are our experiments. (Note this was accepted by the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine in 2017, and was supposed to have been published by June 2018. Not sure what happened, and it may still be.)


https://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/Final-BioPaper-Jom-April-2018.pdf

While the ascorbic acid response was unexpected, it is consistent with known pharmacokinetics of weak acids. A weak acid like ascorbic acid is in the associated relatively non-polar state in the low pH of the stomach becoming more lipid soluble. Weak acids often absorb rapidly from the stomach. However, if the stomach acid is decreased the weak acid disassociates and the polarity inhibits transfer across cell membranes. The ascorbic acid would buffer the stomach pH (from pH ~1 to pH ~4) and inhibit its own absorption. Sodium ascorbate would be a more effective buffering agent and this would explain why the initial absorption spike was not observed.


And Hickey's ideas seem to have support from the pharmaceutical industry :D

https://www.pharmatutor.org/pharmacology/general-pharmacology/physical-properties-drugs.html

Under section c (pH)


Similarly, weak acid is absorbed at a faster rate from stomach (pH 1.4 – 2).
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


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