Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

A discussion of Paul Marik's remarkable new therapy that cures a major killer in hospitals: Sepsis

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Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:22 am

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/01/17/797058463/vitamin-treatment-for-sepsis-fails-in-large-trial

Vitamin Treatment For Sepsis Fails In Large Trial

Case closed. The financial viability of hospitals is preserved.

Seriously?


Indeed, Marik, who remains a strong proponent of this approach, rejects the findings of the study. He tells NPR that by his reckoning, patients in the study received treatment far too late in the course of their disease. "It's like giving it to a patient who's dead," he says. "It's of no benefit. The horse was out of the barn miles beforehand."

Marik, at Eastern Virginia Medical School, gives his patients the vitamin C infusion as quickly as he recognizes signs of sepsis. That's impossible to do in a study in which participants must be enrolled in a study and then randomized into one of the two comparison groups before treatment can begin.

"The question is, why does this study not replicate real-life experience and the experience of hundreds of clinicians around the world?" he asks.

Marik says in his experience, the treatment is only effective if given within six hours after someone has suspected sepsis. At the meeting in Belfast, Dr. Tomoko Fujii, on the study research team at Monash University, said they provided treatment an average of 12 hours after patients arrived in the intensive care unit. Patients came from a variety of locations, including the emergency room, and she said they have no information about how long they had been septic before arriving at the ICU.
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® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#2  Post by C-can » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:19 am

Thanks for posting this. One question I have is, even in the Marik study, 1.5 g every 6 hours? I k how it was effective, but If I have sepsis I don't want 1.5 g I want a 150!

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#3  Post by Jacquie » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:31 pm

It's incredible - and a testament to how effective vitamin C can be - that only 1.5 grams every 6 hours had as much effect as it did.

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:07 am

The Nutraingredients web site parroted the press release that vitamin C/hydrocortisone and Thiamine had failed in a large VITAMINS trial. To their credit, when presented with the arguments for the other side, their editors asked for more information.



Mon, Jan 27, 3:44 AM (1 day ago)

Good morning Owen,

Thank you for getting in touch. I appreciate the fairness of your comments and I now plan to add to the article or perhaps even write a second article with the vitamin C industry’s response to the study. I wouldn’t be able to base a second article purely on Marik’s comments as they were made to NPR but perhaps you could provide some comments for me to use, explaining why the study cannot be taken at face value?

Many thanks,

senior editor


The following is Dr. Thomas E Levy MD, JD's wonderful response to this editor's query.

Dr. Levy wrote:As Dr. Marik accurately pointed out, time is not only of the essence, but of the super essence when dealing with sepsis. Many cases of sepsis can kill in as little as 24 hours, starting from a point where no sepsis is evidently clinically or by laboratory testing. Any delay, especially of hours, will readily neutralize the positive impact of any good therapeutic intervention. Furthermore, this time factor alone negates any possibility of the "repeat" study nullifying the enormously impressive results achieved by Dr. Marik. Furthermore, since vitamin C is cheap and harmless, it is hard to imagine why mainstream medicine is fighting so hard to keep it from being routinely given, or given at all. ALL septic patients can be readily documented to be profoundly deficient in vitamin C by blood testing, so why is there opposition to acutely addressing this deficiency, even by the most skeptical of physicians? A deficiency is a deficiency. Since when is it poor or inappropriate medicine to replenish a vital nutrient documented to be low by precise blood testing? I simply pose these questions, and I leave it to you and others to question exactly what is the motivation and mindset of such physicians in so assiduously avoiding the administration of vitamin C.

Incidentally, there are other defects in the new study, but they would only needlessly distract from the fatal defect already discussed.

Also, no attempt is made by the "new" researchers to explain away why Dr. Marik achieved such "misleading" results, with nearly a 100% survival of patients in a matched group that was unable to survive before receiving his protocol. Why is the burden of proof always placed on a harmless and cheap agent that should be clearly included in a treatment protocol? Incidentally, even before Dr. Marik achieved his success with vitamin C, thiamine, and hydrocortisone, Iranian researchers achieved a nearly identical result with vitamin C dosing alone (see attached).

Finally, for those who have allowed themselves to remain completely unaware of the long history of documented success of vitamin C with a wide variety of infections, toxins, and chronic diseases, you might want to review a bit of the massive evidence as is presented in my book, Primal Panacea, which you can download here for free:

http://www.prp.medfoxpub.com/

If you have questions or concerns about my comments, I am completely open to your reply.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy

Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:33 am

Nutraingredients didn't waste anytime covering the rest of the story


"Ethically and morally unacceptable": Reaction to vitamin C for sepsis trial
https://www.nutraingredients.com/Article/2020/01/28/Ethically-and-morally-unacceptable-Reaction-to-vitamin-C-for-sepsis-trial#
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® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#6  Post by cynthia386 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:10 pm

I started oral vitamin C as soon as I had a fever. It was only after 7 week and 6 visits to doctors and the ER for me to be diagnosed with sepsis. When I was admitted I had a fever of 104, a CRP of 58, and I couldn't walk. The doctors wanted to put me in a nursing home. But several weeks later when the hospital doctors saw me, they couldn't recognize me. They were looking for a sick person.

It is a good idea to take oral vitamin C at the first sign of a fever. But beware that it can mask problems so you don't get diagnosed.

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#7  Post by OxC » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:06 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF2ktY00dqs
If you can't watch it all, at least listen from minute 33 to about 60 as Dr. Marik very effectively describes why the VITAMINS study was flawed.
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#8  Post by Saw » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:19 pm

So the real headline isn't Vitamin Treatment For Sepsis Fails In Large Trial
but rather Small Dose of Vitamin C results in 34.78 Percent Reduction in Mortality
Welcome to reality Dr.Marik
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: Flawed study debunks Marik's Vitamin C sepsis "cure"

Post Number:#9  Post by Serdna » Thu May 07, 2020 5:17 am

VITAMINS is the unintended consequence of both the meager vitamin C dose selected by Dr. Marik over the one selected by Dr. Fowler which Dr. Marik "copied":
Marik et alter wrote:This observation is supported by the pilot study of Fowler et al,¹⁶ who in a randomized controlled trial evaluated the clinical response to low-dose (50 mg/kg/d) and high-dose vitamin C (200 mg/kg/d) (without corticosteroids) in 24 patients with sepsis. In this study, the fall of the PCT in the first 72 h was approximately 40% in the low-dose group and 80% in the high-dose group whereas it increased in the control patients.

and their time to first dose imprecision (my bolds):
Marik et alter wrote:Between January 2016 and July 2016, consecutive patients admitted to the Eastern Virginia Medical School Critical Care Medicine service in the general ICU at Sentara Norfolk General Hospital with a primary diagnosis of severe sepsis or septic shock and a procalcitonin (PCT) level $ 2 ng/mL were treated with intravenous hydrocortisone, vitamin C, and thiamine (vitamin C protocol) within 24 h of ICU admission (treatment group).

I much prefer CITRIS-ALI trial but applying Petro wisdom:
Petro wrote:NB It is difficult to emphasise how good this study is. Just ignore anything the authors have to say.


There is always a low enough dose given late enough to show no effect whatsoever.


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