Vitamin C Forum

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:14 am**

I don't mean instead of, but in addition to human testing. Animal testing
can get relatively quick results. Also diet and life style can be carefully controlled, not
so with humans. To get good human tests we would need a Hitlerian regime. Don't
think that is going to happen any time soon.

As to being 'believable', I don't think that is possible by most no matter what is done.
There is already a lot of excellent info out there that is simply ignored or not believed.

We keep hearing that the biggest killer out there is prescribed drugs, but those drugs
are often, if not always, deemed safe following animal testing. But wait, those animals
make optimal ascorbic acid, so would not they simply detoxify a drug where the
human animal could not? Maybe this has been accounted for, but only being an
engineer I am not very smart, so I am sorry to ask stupid questions. I just can't
help it.

Even though I favor all of the testing and knowledge generation that can be done, 'seems
to me that this forum is doing quite well just as it is -- including the brainstorming!

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:52 am**

w6nrw wrote:I don't mean instead of, but in addition to human testing. Animal testing
can get relatively quick results. Also diet and life style can be carefully controlled, not
so with humans. To get good human tests we would need a Hitlerian regime. Don't
think that is going to happen any time soon.

I'm all for additional animal testing. In terms of diet and lifestyle, part of the point would be that we wouldn't ask the participants to alter their normal diets. They'd just keep on doing what they were doing prior to the study. That way, we could accurately access the direct effect of the Pauling Protocol.

As to being 'believable', I don't think that is possible by most no matter what is done.
There is already a lot of excellent info out there that is simply ignored or not believed.

But, the point is that there is nothing (objective) to ignore or believe when it comes to the Pauling Protocol's effect in humans. There has yet to be ONE human study that has shown specifically that the Pauling Protocol (just the high-dosage C plus Lysine) can reverse or even stabilize arterial plaque progression. That's why a study such as this would be important, in my opinion.

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:13 pm**

a) Intima-media thickness ultrasound may be a safe, informative and relatively inexpensive test that we could employ at the beginning and end of the study.

If arteries get thicker - is that a good or bad thing? (This fooled USC in my opinion, because the improved collagen production increased IMT.) The issue is really blockage, blood flow, and not IMT in a vacuum.

As far as aminal versus human, I agree in theory that we can learn a great deal in a more controlled way from animal experiments. Take a look at the Ginter experiments with guinea pigs... What else can be done regarding vitamin C? Maybe lysine.

I agree that the issue before us is what happens in human beings who don't produce ascorbate. And I like the way this is going, and want to look into "ejection fraction" measurements. We need the least expensive, most effective (preferably non-invasive) measurements possible.

Lets get inventive. What are inexpensive measurements?

Blood Pressure
Heart Rate (resting, after exertion)
Distance walking without pain
Climbing stairs without pain
Skin color/skin tone
Hours asleep

Can anybody think of other low-cost (no-cost) measurements?

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:23 pm**

I agree that the issue before us is what happens in human beings who don't produce ascorbate. And I like the way this is going, and want to look into "ejection fraction" measurements. We need the least expensive, most effective (preferably non-invasive) measurements possible.

Lets get inventive. What are inexpensive measurements?

Blood Pressure
Heart Rate (resting, after exertion)
Distance walking without pain
Climbing stairs without pain
Skin color/skin tone
Hours asleep

Can anybody think of other low-cost (no-cost) measurements?

I'm trying to think "out-of-the-box" here. So, forgive me if I stray a bit from reasonable parameters.

- Frequency and severity of angina attacks?

- Degree of heaviness that's felt in the legs over time - using a rating scale.

- Improvements in memory tests could help provide evidence of improved circulation - specifically to the brain.

- Home vision tests (using a rating scale) and photographs of the eyes may exhibit improvements in ocular circulation (reduction in redness and capillary fragility).

- Improvement in sexual function - particularly in our male participants.

- Photographs and measurements of participants legs could provide evidence of increased circulation (less swelling, improvement in the appearance of varicose veins, etc.).

- Photographs of gums and teeth for obvious reasons.

- Measurement, with pictures perhaps, that documents the rate of wound healing (bruises specifically). Many older people bruise easily and the C and lysine therapy could possibly help this.

- Overall energy levels. Again, the better the circulation, the better the oxygen and nutrient transport and likely an improvement in energy levels. This may, in part, be covered by your suggestion for "hours asleep".

- A rating scale assessment of arthritic symptoms. Since both C and lysine should help promote collagen production, we may very well find a minor improvement or stabilization of symptoms and structural support.

I'll stop there for now. Hopefully there's something worthwhile in these suggestions.

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:30 am**

Seymore Spectacles wrote:

Blood Pressure
Heart Rate (resting, after exertion)
Distance walking without pain
Climbing stairs without pain
Skin color/skin tone
Hours asleep

- Frequency and severity of angina attacks?
- Degree of heaviness that's felt in the legs over time - using a rating scale.
- Improvements in memory tests could help provide evidence of improved circulation - specifically to the brain.
- Home vision tests (using a rating scale) and photographs of the eyes may exhibit improvements in ocular circulation (reduction in redness and capillary fragility).
- Improvement in sexual function - particularly in our male participants.
- Photographs and measurements of participants legs could provide evidence of increased circulation (less swelling, improvement in the appearance of varicose veins, etc.).
- Photographs of gums and teeth for obvious reasons.
- Measurement, with pictures perhaps, that documents the rate of wound healing (bruises specifically). Many older people bruise easily and the C and lysine therapy could possibly help this.
- Overall energy levels. Again, the better the circulation, the better the oxygen and nutrient transport and likely an improvement in energy levels. This may, in part, be covered by your suggestion for "hours asleep".
- A rating scale assessment of arthritic symptoms. Since both C and lysine should help promote collagen production, we may very well find a minor improvement or stabilization of symptoms and structural support.

I'll stop there for now. Hopefully there's something worthwhile in these suggestions.

Excellent. I'll think about these ideas. Does anyone else have ideas for low-cost measurement techniques? Objective measures are best, but the more ways improvement in circulation can be measured, the better.

So any more outside the box measurement techniques? What is an indicator of good circulation (or poor circulation?)

How about temperature of the extremeties? Or even body temperature?

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:00 am**

ofonorow wrote: What is an indicator of good circulation (or poor circulation?)

How about temperature of the extremeties? Or even body temperature?

Owen,

The temperature issue did occur to me. I'm not sure if poor cirulation, which results in the feeling of being cold, actually affects body temperature or not.

Still, even if it does affect the actual temperature, we could certainly measure any changes based on perception - using a rating-scale perhaps.

Something else that occured to me is that we might inquire about the frequency or degree of poor circulation during sleep. I believe that many people suffer from limbs "falling asleep", especially at night. If there was a marked improvement in this ... it could possibly be an important finding.

I wonder if this particular combination of nutrients might affect hair and nail growth as well? We know it promotes collagen production but does it also support keratin production as well? This obviously wouldn't prove that circulation is necessarily improving but, it could offer more support for the connective-tissue benefits of this combo.

How about an improvement in hearing? Perhaps even an improvement in the sense of smell? A reduction in the number of falls - measuring balance or injury-reduction? Recently, I believe they conducted an epidemiological study measuring this in relation to vitamin D levels.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:38 am**

Owen,

Mr. (so and so) called me and would like to order 6 (six) more jars of Cardio-C. By the way, he reports increased circulation, less fatigue and blood pressure benefits since being on two jars a month. Chalk up another one for C!

Take care.

p.s.

He said his color is better and his hands and feet are warmer.

I'm sure there are lots of benefits from increased vitamin C, but we need objective, low-cost measurements that strongly indicate a change in circulation. Improve hearing might occur from improved circulation, or because a particular hormone is produced in higher amounts. Since we can't tie improved hearing, or fingernail growth, or hair growth, etc. to only improved circulation , while interesting, I'm not sure it is worth tracking because including it might diminish the overall impact.

I'm still hoping for an out-of-the-box, objective, low-cost measurement that most people would accept as a strong indicator of improved circulation.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:51 am**

Lets look at it from a different angle, what are the indicators of cardiovascular disease?

Angina pain

Tightness in chest

Shortness of breath

Lack of energy, fatigue and inability to do work

Heart Attack

Stroke

Atheromas develop and observed in retinal arteries

Poor color

Pain in the extremities

high blood pressure

What am i forgetting?

Several of the above can have multiple causes. (Even Angina could be from skeletal muscle, not heart muscle.)

I push on my skin with a finger causing a depression. The blood disappears for a moment, a circle turns white, but then the white circle turns red as the blood returns. It takes 2 to 3 seconds for the color to return to normal. I wonder if a person with poor circulation might take longer, perhaps 3 to 5 seconds, and if this could be a simple test for circulation?

Any heart patients reading? Push on the skin on top of the hand, behind the thumb and first finger. Hold it for about 2 seconds, let go and tell us how long it takes for the color to return to the depressed spot on your skin. Thx!

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:30 am**

A few other potential symptoms:

- lightheadedness/dizziness
- swelling around the ankles
- indigestion
- arrhythmias and palpitations

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:51 am**

Life exntension once sent me their huge diagnostic or therapeutic manual, and it listed all the known risk factors for CVD. Does anyone have a copy? I know that Levy tied every risk factor to low vitamin C in the body, but, if we were able to measure and show improvement in all the easy-to-measure risk factors, that would be valuable.

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:21 pm**

Looking for risk factors, stumbled upon this web page
http://www.benbest.com/health/cardio1.html
Sudden Cardiovascular Death

I remember that Life Extension also points out that more than 50% of those who die of CVD/heart attack, have NO identifiable risk factors.

The most long-standing, large-scale and careful epidemiological study of cardiovascular disease is the Framingham Heart Study, begun in the city of Framingham, Massachusetts in 1948. Nearly half of the original participants have now died, and their deaths have been diagnosed with care (2). The Framingham definition of "sudden death" is a death that occurs within one hour of the onset of symptoms, and this definition is the most commonly used among medical researchers. Sudden cardiac deaths (SCDs) accounted for 11% of Framingham deaths, with another 7% classified as "possible" SCDs. ("Possible" cardiac deaths are those which have not been witnessed, or those for which the deceased was discovered dead in bed. These statistics are supported by analysis of 1983 death certificates for the entire state of Massachusetts (despite the fact of diagnosis being less scrupulous)(3). A study based on data compiled from both Framingham and civil servants in Albany, New York (4) demonstrated that for men in the 45-75 age range, 60% of SCDs occurred in men with no prior evidence of coronary artery disease. In another study, 32% of deaths among men in the 20-64 age range was attributed to SCD, with 25% showing no prior recognized symptoms of heart disease (5).

A detailed pathological study was made of 130 random subjects who died suddenly in the Glasgow, Scotland area (6). 92 of these (70%) sudden deaths were due to ischemic heart disease, 13 (10%) were due to overdose, 8 (6%) were due to unknown causes and 6 were (4.6%) were due to non-ischemic cardiovascular disease. Only two cases (1.5%) were due to cerebrovascular disease (stroke). All of the subjects deemed to have died from ischemic heart disease in the Glasgow Study showed a loss of more than 75% of cross sectional area in one or more coronary arteries (arteries supplying the heart).

We want to demonstrate that vitamin C/lysine has an effect on ischemic heart disease (atherosclerosis). The above may help. We'd want to show that vitamin C and lysine can restore "a loss of more than 75% of cross sectional area in one or more coronary arteries (arteries supplying the heart)"

So how do we determine the "cross sectional area of the coronary arteries" prior to death?

People can have this condition without any known risk factors. (The obvious risk factor to me is insufficient vitamin C, but that is what we want to show.)

Maybe we should revisit the technique Willis used in the early 1950s!?

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:53 pm**

Common risk factors

* Smoking.
* High LDL, or "bad" cholesterol and low HDL, or "good" cholesterol.
* Uncontrolled hypertension (high blood pressure).
* Physical inactivity.
* Obesity (more than 20% over one's ideal body weight).
* Uncontrolled diabetes.
* High C-reactive protein.
* Uncontrolled stress and anger.

Then found this
http://pennhealth.com/ency/article/000195.htm

Other symptoms you may have either alone or along with chest pain include:

* Shortness of breath
* Cough
* Lightheadedness - dizziness
* Fainting
* Nausea or vomiting
* Sweating, which may be profuse
* Feeling of "impending doom"
* Anxiety

Signs and tests:

During a physical examination, the doctor will usually note a rapid pulse. Blood pressure may be normal, high, or low. While listening to the chest with a stethoscope, the doctor may hear crackles in the lungs, a heart murmur, or other abnormal sounds.

The following tests may reveal a heart attack and the extent of heart damage:

* Electrocardiogram (ECG) -- single or repeated over several hours
* Echocardiography
* Coronary angiography
* Nuclear ventriculography (MUGA or RNV)

I wonder how many readers are starting to think that measuring Lp(a) - thank you Linus Pauling - is probably the best indicator, at least for a pilot study.. Hmmm

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:00 am**

Owen,

What exactly do you mean by revisiting the technique used by Dr. Willis? Do you mean serial arteriography? If so, why? Do you believe it's more precise and/or cost effective than other measures that have come about since?

If we just measured Lp(a) levels ... how would that show that any reversal has taken place? Unless I'm mistaken, it won't prove, one way or another, what the environment is like in the arteries. And that, is the vital question, IMO.

I'll be away on vacation for about a week. I just mention this because I don't want you to think that I'm giving up on this exercise.

I hope others will offer their thoughts on this proposed experiment. I would particularly like hear Ralph Lotz's and Zucic's P.O.V.

As an aside, have you ever spoken to Abram Hoffer about his thoughts regarding the Pauling Protocol? I wonder if he's had any experience utilizing it with some of his patients (in the past).

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:11 am**

Seymore Spectacles wrote:Owen,

What exactly do you mean by revisiting the technique used by Dr. Willis? Do you mean serial arteriography? If so, why? Do you believe it's more precise and/or cost effective than other measures that have come about since?

If we just measured Lp(a) levels ... how would that show that any reversal has taken place? Unless I'm mistaken, it won't prove, one way or another, what the environment is like in the arteries. And that, is the vital question, IMO.

The Willis X-ray technique visually showed exactly what I think we'd all like to measure - the occlusion of coronary arteries. Take a look at the pdfs. These are old and scanned, but you can see what his pictures showed - from arterial cross sections.

Otherwise, with the possible exception of ultrasound/blood flow measurements, I don't see how we can directly measure occlusion.

Ergo, Lp(a) is probably the simplest and most predictive blood factor indicating occlusion.

Now, resting (calm) blood pressure is important too. (It is measured because a very small occlusion can greatly increase blood pressure. It is an indirect means of measuring occlusion.)

I was hoping that we would invent an even better way, but only Bush's Cardioretinometry seems to fit, and we don't have a lot of data connecting atheromas in the eyes with coronary occlusion.

In a perfect world, we'd monitor all the factors we've mentioned and more, looking for the best way, low-cost way to predict occlusion, verify post-mortem, and then use the low-cost way to diagnose CVD.

In one sense, the Biesegial team in Germany (with Matthias Rath as a student) has done just this. This team found that aortic plaque was composed entirely of Lp(a) - not ordinary LDL cholesterol. This is why blood levels of Lp(a), the substance Pauling and Rath have identified as vitamin C's surrogate in the body, seems to be the best indicator.

Maybe somebody will have a brain storm.

Posted: **Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:02 pm**

Owen,

In the June 2007 issue of the LEF magazine, there's a brief overview of a recent study comparing the use of aspirin + statins and aspirin + statins plus aged garlic extract (on the progression of atherosclerosis). I'm not sure if it's available online so I'll type out the conclusions and try to find the PUBMED abstract for it.

"Compared to subjects who took placebo (no aged garlic), those who consumed aged garlic extract had far less calcification of coronary plaque ...".

In this study, published in the J Nutr. March 2006, they used electron beam tomography to monitor any changes in the coronary arteries.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/3/741S

Also, it seems as if the LEF has a new anti-atherosclerosis supplement (with an accompanying article to explain it's proposed function).

Atherosclerosis is a serious threat to health. Its progression has been linked to increased risk of heart attack, stroke, atrial fibrillation and dementia, among other potentially fatal conditions. Since it may begin as early as childhood, and aging has been identified as the greatest risk factor for its development, it is vital to combat this arterial-dysfunction disease as early—and as aggressively—as possible. Nature has provided the means to protect ourselves from this insidious threat. By increasing our levels of the natural enzymatic antioxidant, superoxide dismutase (SOD), and by harnessing the potent polyphenol power of pomegranate, scientists have shown that it is now possible to help reverse the course of atherosclerosis—naturally.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/jul ... is_01.html

3-D spiral CT scan / angiogram of carotid atherosclerosis. Plaque attached to the wall of left internal carotid artery, 1cm above the carotidal bifurcation.

Vitamin C Forum

A Pauling Therapy Study Design Exercise

reply for w6nrw

Is intima-media thickness a good or bad thing?

Re: Is intima-media thickness a good or bad thing?

Re: Is intima-media thickness a good or bad thing?

Re: Is intima-media thickness a good or bad thing?

This just in

Lets think another way

others symptoms

Another idea

Looking for Risk Factors, found this

Another interesting page

reply for Owen

Re: reply for Owen

a link and more