Vitamin C Forum

Posted: **Fri May 03, 2013 10:38 am**

Hi Owen,

In response to your email below -

Had my blood tested on April 15th. All my numbers (LDL, HDL, Total Cholesterol, Triglycerides) came back at levels that made my cardiologist happy. Mainly due to me going back on my statin (Crestor). However, my Lp(a) came back higher than the last measurement 6 months ago. Six months ago it was in the low 400's, and now it came back at 698! Normal is less than 20 - I believe.

My cardiologist sent me to a lipid specialist to see what he can do. He told me that they are going to aggressively treat my LDL cholesterol with Statin, Zetia, metamucil before dinner, and major diet changes to try to offset the high Lp(a). I mentioned that I was on Vitamin C, L-Lysine, L-Proline therapy, and he said to stop because it doesn't work and could give me kidney stones. I had high hopes for the Vitamin C therapy, and don't want to stop it just yet. I have been on the therapy for about 8 months. How long till I should see an improvement in Lp(a) numbers? The lipid doctor told me that even lowering Lp(a) doesn't entirely mean am I no longer at risk of a heart attack etc...

I look forward to hearing back from you. Thank you.

Mike

I don't usually do this but you can use my name and tell your doctor that his advice shows his ignorance of Lp(a), of the lysine binding sites on the Lp(a) molecules, and that in my opinion, his advice to stop vitamin C and lysine is so poor as to put your life in danger if you followed it. Anyone with elevated Lp(a) needs to be taking Lp(a) binding inhibitors, as invented and patented by Linus Pauling. There are at least three patents that help explain what an Lp(a) binding inhibitor is.

If your numbers are mg/dl - you should be dead. Impossible given your other "now" normal cholesterol numbers. When you first contacted me, the cholesterol numbers were high. So those numbers must be nmol/l - but again, given your normal cholesterol levels, something does not compute.

The kidney stone issue is farsical, and is no reason to kill your self. (Think of all the animals making their own vitamin C 24/7 - why don't they have this supposed kidney stone issue?)

I mention zetia in my book. That particular statin was taken off the market, or should have been, because in one study, the people on the statin did so poorly!

Posted: **Sat May 04, 2013 9:22 am**

because in one study, the people on the statin did so poorly!

POORLY??? Heck they had a Death Rate 6 times the National average!!!

His Problem!
First look at your most recent blood work paper and locate "CREATININE" take this number and go to the calculator Here.

http://www.davita.com/gfr-calculator/

If you are stage 1 or 2 your ok for the next step.
Go to your doc and talk to him/her about putting you on Niasapan or Slo Niacin
2000Mg. right before bed! At this dose it's best for them to keep an eye on your liver functions well taking such a high dose thats why I suggest doing it under your docs supervision. 3 to 6 months you should see improvment. Stay on the Pauling therapy and don't stop not even for a single day!!! Gee where have we heard that before???

Posted: **Sat May 04, 2013 2:09 pm**

Regarding email below -

Thank you for the quick response.

I will continue the Vitamin C therapy.

Also, here are my numbers from my blood work on 4-15-13. This was when I was back on the statin meds. When I go off the statin my total Cholesterol was 286, and LDL was 140.

As of 4-15-13
Total Cholesterol - 178
TGL - 96
HDL - 60
LDL - 99
Non-HDL - 118

Lp(a) - 582 (6 months ago it was in the low 400 range). I am concerned that it increased while on the Vitamin C therapy.

I currently use 2 scoops a day of Cardio C (one in morning and one in evening). I add 2500 mg of Vitamin C to the Cardio C each time. I also take an additional 5,000 mg of Vitamin C and 1,000 mg of L-Lysine at lunch. Total Vitamin C a day is 15,000 mg / Total L-Lysine a day is 6,000 mg and total L-Proline is 1,000 mg a day. Is this sufficient in my case?

Also, I add a quarter teaspoon of Baking Soda to my Vitamin C drink each time to mitigate some of the acid (for a total of three quarters of a teaspoon of Baking Soda a day). Is this safe to do? I thought I read that Linus Pauling did the same thing.

Regards,

Michael

Posted: **Sat May 04, 2013 2:15 pm**

What are the units of the Lp(a) measurement?

One interpretation of your cholesterol numbers is that your body is using cholesterol to fight some problem, perhaps high toxicity. When you take the statin, (a drug which artificially reduces cholesterol), your body loses that tool it would otherwise use to protect itself.

The sticky Lp(a) is another issue, and you are doing the correct thing with vitamin C, lysine and proline.

And don't forget vitamins E, A, B-complex and Magnesium. Basically Pauling's regimen.

Here is page with a link to my entire regimen that is based on Pauling's recommendations.

http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/protocol/

Posted: **Sun May 05, 2013 10:10 am**

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2013 9:05 am**

Thanks Owen. I went to the link and saw John's response. I will email you again with all the meds I am on, and please post again and see what John thinks. I am really perplexed as to what I should do regarding using Crestor and Zetia. Should I stay on it, or should I stop it.

Years ago we put together this page... some links may now be stale, but the general message is still relevant
http://vitamincfoundation.org/statinalert/ In my lay opinion, there is very rarely a reason to take a statin cholesterol lowering drug. (Perhaps if by genetic trouble your cholesterol is above 400 mg/dl).

Turns out that zetia and crestor are the worst of the bunch, sEE: http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=3212

Here is an old CBS news article on crestor
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/04/health/main604030.shtml

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2013 1:23 pm**

Just FYI, Zetia is not a statin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zetia

I agree that its bad, but it's not a statin.

Also, that article on citizen.org does not mention zetia.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2013 10:59 am**

Thank you for the correction! (I was thinking Vytorin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytorin)

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2013 11:00 am**

Owen,

Regarding email below -

My Lp(a) of 582 was measured in mg/dL. My Creatinine was 1.30.

Here is some more of my heart health history -

I am a 50 year old white male.
Had a heart attack when I was 46. Was able to open blockage with 2 stents.
Have had a total of 5 heart surgeries. All requiring stents.

Here is a list of the meds and supplements I take daily -

Morning - Folic Acid 1mg / Zetia 10mg / Effient 10 mg / Vitamin D3 2,000 IU / Multivitamin / Vitamin C 5,000 mg, L-Lysine 2,500 mg, L-Proline 500 mg.
Lunch - Vitamin C 5,000 mg, L-Lysine 1,000 mg.
Night - Crestor 20 mg / Toprol (Generic) 12.5 mg / Baby Aspirin 81 mg / Vitamin E 1,000 IU / Vitamin C 5,000 mg, L-Lysine 2,500 mg, L-Proline 500 mg.

Please share this with John Wen to see what he thinks. Thank you.

Posted: **Tue May 07, 2013 11:12 am**

Johnwen - if someone's Lp(a) were really over 500 mg/dl, then wouldn't total cholesterol be higher than 500 mg/dl? Isn't Lp(a) a subset of LDL? Something does not compute.

However, high Lp(a) would explain 4 or 5 heart operations by age 50, so I reiterate that in this case, stopping the Lp(a) binding inhibitors vitamin C, lysine and proline would be extremely dangerous.

In fact, If it were me, I would probably double the dosage of everything, at least until the Lp(a) comes down.

What is your total cholesterol?

Posted: **Wed May 08, 2013 10:11 am**

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 2:02 pm**

Please share this with John Wen to see what he thinks. Thank you.

Assuming you are a white,asian or hispanic male, You have STAGE 3 KIDNEY DISEASE according to the DiVita calculator. GFR is 58! I checked with some lab people they confirmed this.

I would suggest having "The Talk!" with your doc about this! There is some diet and pills that can help you with this before it gets really really bad. He might want to send you to a Nephrolgist for eval. and ideas. My advice go see them your bordering on some major problems if you don't. Sorry

To help learn some more about lipids and kidneys heres a article form the Society of Nephros. on its functions.

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/18/4/1246.full

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2013 11:51 am**

I shared my opinion via email that orthomolecular nutrients (e.g. vitamin C) probably don't cause kidney disease, but that toximolecular substances (i.e. drugs) seem to be commonly connected with kidney failure. This is his response

Thanks for the response below - yeah the stage 3 kidney disease did not sit well with me. Wonder why my doctors didn't discuss this with me.

Which meds from my list would you or John Wenn recommend me weaning off (under my doctors supervision)?

Wonder if the damage can be reversed or not.

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2013 1:46 am**

Howdy, way out of my league here but... I was under the impression the Lysine,vit C, proline protocol prevented Lp(a) from being deposited and also pulled Lp(a) from the vascular walls- thus increasing the level of Lp(a) in the blood- which is tested. Therefore the presence of so much/increase of Lp(a) within the blood was a good thing- it means the protocol is working?
Next thing to do is rid the excess Lp(a) from the blood- where Johnwen's advice was correct, as far as i understand. The introduction of Vitamin B3 as Niacin. Niacin lowers Lp(a) and triglycerides and raises the HDL as well as having anti-inflammatory properties- furthermore it is very very much safer too consume than any drug AND it works better than any drug. Niacinamide protects kidney tissue and niacin(3g/day) has been used to successfully treat patients with severe glomerulonephritis and varying stages of kidney failure.
So in answer to your question whether the damage can be reversed, i'd be positive!:)
Hope some of this has been helpful.
Jimmy

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2013 12:25 pm**

Good post Jim! But first lets eliminate some the major suspects in that they could very well be contributing to his problems.

The first drug to get scratched off your list should be the Ezetimibe (zytia).
I'll try to avoid getting to techy.
This drug basically blocks the absorption of cholesterol (fats) from the gut and opens up the cellular intake of LDL fraction of the cholesterol which in turn causes cells to absorb more LDL and lowers the available amount in the blood. This all seems like a good idea to lower that ever BADDDD(gag) Cholesterol. However by blocking this absorption of fat it also blocks the absorption of protein from the gut. The bodies needs for protein must be met so this causes the body to turn to it's reserves which are called, 'Muscles.'
So basically it starts eating itself this is called 'Myopathy.' The body is smart and has safety factors attached. One is, if to much internal muscle is being broke down it creates a toxic state and the body try's to remove these toxins via the kidneys, this is turn starts to destroy the kidneys. As they start to break down more and more of this internal toxic protein begins to circulate in the body and starts doing damage elsewhere. The body responds to this damage by sending out it's soldiers to repair the damaged tissue. But, do to Budget Cuts that have been occurring recently (statins slowing down the liver). The only soldiers who have not been affected by these cuts (Lpa) will be the highest on patrol within the body.
Mind you that this just doesn't happen overnight and takes a while to start. This goes back to caveman days when food was far and few in between, the human body had to adjust for these gaps of intake.
So well taking this drug you may feel well at first but it'll sneak up on you and knock you down. Bear in mind this drug doesn't block a 100% of the protein so the reduction may take even more time to occur but it will catch up.
In your case, I Believe you are already starting to see the effects of this drug.
Remember! High Protein is bad for the kidneys and only should be supplemented if your doing Body Building type exercises and not making progress with muscle development. Most Food supply's ample amounts of protein to sustain life, if some drug isn't blocking it.
ZYTIA= ROUND FILE!(garbage can!)
Knock the Crestor down to 10Mg. ( This will make your doc feel he�s doing something!)
TARGETS!!!
Total Cholesterol = 180-200 (201-206 is ok)
LDL = 110-140
HDL = >50
You can LIVE with these figures!! BELOW that ?????????

Vitamin C Forum

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