German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

Moderator: ofonorow

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#211  Post by pamojja » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:34 am

The challenge is she doesn't want. I knew a hundred ways how to counter pancreatic cancer. Though I can understand that she doesn't want to undertake such drastic measures, like an immediate fast, ketogenic diet, IVs, pancreatic enzymes, turkey tail or other supplements by the hand-full. But she even refuses an easy to take (because it only needs a speck of a tablet) immune booster like LDN. She is just happy to finally being able die for the reasons already mentioned above.

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#212  Post by Frodo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:02 am

Owen, Johnwen

At post 206 I wrote:

„I see it‘s working (with actually about 30 grams VC, 7 grams lysine and 2 grams proline, additional about 1,5 grams niacin).“

Once again my question: What do you think, should I try to increase niacin?

Thanks for your answer. I hope it could be helpful.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 13227
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#213  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:42 am

Thanks to the book NIACIN: THE REAL STORY, by Hoffer, Saul, et. al., taking the right amount of Niacin is important, whether or not it provides any other added benefits visa via Lp(a) and heart disease.

Hoffer used to match his vitamin C and Niacin dosage recommendations (from his other books.) In his book about Cancer and Vitamin C, which is a collection of case reports, I believe his general recommendations were 6 g ascorbate and 6 g niacin.

For those readers who don't know, it was Hoffer's book on using high doses of Niacin to treat schizophrenia that opened the eyes of Linus Pauling, creating his interest that led to orthomolecular medicine. How, Pauling wondered, could a substance that was so physiologically powerful that a spec could cure a deficiency disease, e.g. pellegra, be taken at doses several orders of magnitude larger (e.g. 18 grams) and not have any toxic effects?

Hoffer explains his theory in NIACIN: THE REAL STORY, i.e., that perhaps 1/3 of the population has a genetic defect that causes mental problems, and that some dosage of Niacin corrects.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#214  Post by Frodo » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:33 am

Owen

A stupid question. But at least a chief physician of cardiology asked this question. After my heart attack two years ago. He wanted to have my VC status determind. Because I had told him that I was taking 30 grams of VC. And he didn‘t understand that, of course.
According to everything I know, this is nonsense.
Or is there a way to measure VC in the body (except the method of Cathcart or Jaffe)?

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 13227
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#215  Post by ofonorow » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:20 am

Not a stupid question, or at least it is a question I personally have trouble answering :?

There are tests for vitamin C blood levels.. If we think of kidneys as a bucket with a hole near the top (thank you Drs. Hickey and Saul) then when vitamin C levels are below the level of the hole (e.g. between 0 and 1.5 mg/dl) we have some idea of vitamin C "status." (When we take more and fill the "bucket" up more than the hole, the extra is quickly eliminated via the kidneys/urine.)

If cells require vitamin C they will extract it from the blood. If it is not resupplied, the blood level declines. We know from Cathcart that when ill or under stress, our tissues can extract massive amounts of the vitamin from the blood.

So the closer blood levels are to 1.5 mg/dl - the more saturated are our tissues and the better our vitamin C status is.

The Dynamic Flow theory (e.g. 30 minute half-life) indicates that at some level of consistent intake, the blood level can be kept at or near the hole (1.5 mg/dl), perhaps 500 mg every 4 hours.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#216  Post by pamojja » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:29 am

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/91 ... ntry797721

The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).


According to http://www.endmemo.com/medical/unitconv ... amin_C.php 517 micromol/L are 9.1 mg/dl of Vitamin C consistently tested in Plasma of patient who have taken 20 g of Vitamin C throughout the day.

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#217  Post by Frodo » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:48 pm

OK and thank you Owen.

But that only makes sense if I take VC and want to check how it works out. And I should have done it just in time. But during my stay at the clinic there was no VC. Only bad clinic nutrition. Therefore I think that it makes no sense to measure it.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 13227
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#218  Post by ofonorow » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:41 pm

Well, your doctor might learn something if you -- who takes such a large amount-- shows low on a blood test :-)

There is an oxidative stress test (that measure GSH I believe) that may be an indicator. Boyd Haley told us that only vitamin C can regenerate or increase GSH levels in cells. So if your oxidative stress is low, you could infer your vitamin C status within cells is good.

We might be able to invent some kind of loading test, along the lines of the Jaffe Cleanse, to evaluate how much (and fast) vitamin C is entering tissues, as a measure of current status.

Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#219  Post by Frodo » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:06 am

I checked my lp(a) value again. It has dropped from 141 in December to 132 nmol now (ref. value is <75 nmol).I think, PT is working further - though slowly. I‘ll try to increase niacin intake. At the moment I take only 1,5 gram.

And my homocysteine dropped from 13 to 8,7. With 5mthf folate, B6 and B12, additional betaine. That‘s good.

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#220  Post by Frodo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:07 am

To my post 202 the answer of the Rath-Team, in abridged form and translated:

„Lp(a) in humans is genetically determined. And since lp(a) is not routinely measured, the information on lp(a) in atherosclerosis patients is not complete.
Most people with atherosclerosis have lp(a) in their blood.

The lp(a) is deposited parallel to the development of atherosclerosis. The more advanced the atherosclerosis is the more lp(a) accumulates in the plaques.

The deposits of apo(a)/lp(a) occur at the sites of structural damage to the arterial wall - caused by a lack of VC and other nutrients - as a compensatory mechanism to increase wall integrity. Since this molecule also contains cholesterol, lp(a) is always where cholesterol is stored.

Hinernators develop other types of plaques than humans. They are caused by a lack of nutrients in the winter months and lead to a thickening of the wall to prevent blood loss.
In summer, when sufficient nutrients are absorbed, this process is reserved.“

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#221  Post by Frodo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:36 am

Owen

Dr. Mark Sircus writes in his book „Healing With Iodine“:
„Dr. Robert Rowen informs that iodine reduces the activity of lipoprotein(a).“
I know much about iodine, but I haven‘t heard anything about that yet. And I don‘t know Dr. Rowen.

Are you familar with that?

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 13227
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#222  Post by ofonorow » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:58 am

No, and would be quite interested in what that means. If you find out, tell us or provide a link. Thank you!

I was surprised not too many years ago when a forum member contacted Life Extension advisors about Lp(a) and they had additional information that carnitine (in addition to vitamin C and Niacin) had experimental evidence showing it lowered Lp(a) levels. Fortunately, we learn something new every day
:D
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#223  Post by Frodo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:45 am

Yes, I‘ll report. I asked Dr. Rowen and I hope he‘ll answer.

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#224  Post by Frodo » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:20 pm

I asked Dr. Sircus and Dr. Rowen. They haven‘t answered yet.
But I found several authors quoting Dr. Rowen. They all say (like Dr. Sircus): „Dr Robert Rowen informs...“. Although I didn‘t find an article or trial about it.
For example:

rexroadnmt.com/iodine.htm (Dr. James Howenstine: The role of iodine)
Or Dr. David Derry.

I remembered a post by Johnwen (post 38 to this subject). He said: When it comes to lp(a) there seems to be a connection to Thyroid.
And I found a series of articles discussing a link to thyroid hormones. I know, the optimal function of the thyroid gland depends largely on iodine (and on selenium and tyrosine). Certainly a sick thyroid consumes more vitamin C than a healthy one. Like Owen said: „So a guess is that there is still some fire in your body that needs to be put out with even more „water“ (VC)“.
(Yes, I had a thyroid fire in my body. And I think, I put it out with iodine and VC. Perhaps the reason that PT now works)

J Intern Med 2013; 273:6-30 (Medical University, Innsbruck)
Clin Chem. 1995 Feb; 41(2):226-31 (Kung et.al : In conclusion, thyroid hormones do modulate lipoproteins, particularly Lp(a) )
http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2015/952729 (The lipid parameters and lp(a) excess in hashimoto thyroiditis)

Frodo
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#225  Post by Frodo » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:23 pm

Another question to the forum:
Last week I did a mega blood check (but this time without lpa). So far everything was fine. Except B-type natriuretic peptide (N-terminales proBNP/in german)
The value was increased to 572 pg/ml (ref. value <110). At first I was scared. But then I remembered that the value responded to physical exertion. And I was about 10 km by byke to the doctor‘s office. That was stupid.

But what do you think about the „NT proBNP“ value? Is it also measured in the U.S. to control heart failure?

Pauling/Rath said, heart failure is also a lack of vitamins and other nutrients. Should NT proBNP mean anything to us then?

I think, I better not have it measured.


Return to “Heart Disease: Linus Pauling's Vitamin C/Lysine Therapy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron