is ascorbic acid good for you?

Any adverse effects of replacement vitamin C will be discuseed here. Topics include kidney stones, gall stones, oxidation, etc.
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is ascorbic acid good for you?

Post Number:#1  Post by Guest » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:39 pm

i did not write this its something i found.

just want to know what you guys think of this?

IS ASCORBIC ACID GOOD FOR YOU?

For a variety of financial and political reasons, ascorbic acid has been deemed "vitamin C." But actually, ascorbic acid is only the antioxidant factor of a nutritional complex that contains a myriad of nutrients all rolled up into one big ball that we call the Vitamin C Complex.

This nutritional complex is the real vitamin C because it is exactly as found in nature. Ascorbic acid is never found isolated in nature and serves only to protect the whole Vitamin C Complex from degradation. It is much like a preservative in processed foods, providing them with a longer shelf life. The schematic below of the whole Vitamin C Complex and its ascorbic acid fraction will help make this clear.

ASCORBIC ACID


ASCORBIGEN
BIOFLAVONOID

COMPLEXES

TYROSINASE
(ORGANIC COPPER



P FACTORS
J FACTORS

K FACTORS



ASCORBIC ACID

The Functional Architecture
of Vitamin C Complex

Since ascorbic acid is such a tiny portion of the natural Vitamin C Complex. any ascorbic acid product cannot possibly be natural. The reason is simple-to get sufficient quantities of ascorbic acid from nature, the other portions of the whole Vitamin C Complex would be so large as to make a single 500 mg "natural" ascorbic acid pill the size of a tennis ball.

Since there is no "natural" ascorbic acid, it is the combination of nutritive factors found in the whole Vitamin C Complex that do the healing, not the ascorbic acid. This was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by the Nobel Prize winner and discoverer of ascorbic acid, Dr. Szent-Gyorgyi. In a letter to the editor of the esteemed journal Nature, July 14, 1936, p. 27, he wrote that when it comes to anti-scurvy and anti-hemorrhagic effects, there are "other substances of similar importance and activity that accompany ascorbic acid."

More important, when Szent-Gyorgyi tried to cure scurvy and other bleeding conditions, he found that "with pure ascorbic acid, we obtained no response.... Yet when red pepper or lemon or lime juice was used, the condition was readily cured." The reason for this is simple, the nutritive portions of vitamin C do the curing and healing, ascorbic acid _simply performs the antioxidant function.

So we have it from the horses mouth that ascorbic acid was not effective in curing the very conditions known to be vitamin C-deficiency diseases. This has been known since the early 1930s. But it is simple to reproduce ascorbic acid and sell it as vitamin C for big bucks. So the charade has continued all these years. The real need for ascorbic acid is to protect the healing nutrients in the whole Vitamin C Complex from oxidation.

What About the Vitamin C Diseases?

The integrity of blood vessels is dependent upon vitamin C and its natural bioflavonoid and organic copper components. People taking super doses of ascorbic acid still have pink toothbrush, still have brown skin on their legs from capillary fragility, and still suffer from arteriosclerosis subclinical scurvy, and other blood vessel problems because they aren't getting enough whole Vitamin C Complex.

A whole-food extract of vitamin C-rich foods will resolve these problems where ascorbic acid tablets routinely fail. Are these conditions common? In older folks they are becoming the routine. Clogged arteries, inflamed arteries, aneurysms, skin covered with patches of leaked blood that turns brown, bleeding gums and loose teeth, gum disease, bone problems including osteoporosis, and more are all symptoms of vitamin C deficiency. And they are universal-despite the fact that almost everyone takes enough ascorbic to sink a battleship.
But what about the antioxidant activity of ascorbic acid? The new super-role of antioxidants is being hyped to the public to sell chemicals labeled as vitamins. These are supposed to protect you from free radicals and serve as anti-aging products. Most people's cells are actually starved for oxygen. Huge doses of chemical antioxidants can make these conditions worse.

We have people who can't take a deep breath. Those who are constantly in a fog. And more that can't walk a block without fainting. Antioxidants (chemical Vitamin E, ascorbic acid, etc) taken to excess can make these conditions worse. The whole Vitamin C Complex improves oxygen assimilation in the blood This relieves the heart and all the other blood cells that constantly need oxygenation.



It Can't Hurt-Or Can It?

Any substance that actively promotes disease in the human body cannot be considered a vitamin. Therefore, ascorbic acid is not a vitamin. Here are just a few things we have found associated with excessive ascorbic acid intake:

1. Ascorbic acid pills can speed up the process of hardening of the arteries. This was published in an Associated Press release (3-3-2000) from an epidemiological study presented at the American Heart Association.

2. Cancer thrives on glucose and ascorbic acid. Studies from the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center showed that tumors do better in a high ascorbic acid environment..
3. Ascorbic acid is excreted via the kidneys in 24 hours. (European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1990 June;44(6):447-60).

4. Five hundred mgs. of ascorbic acid daily can damage genetic material (DNA). (New York Times, April 8, 1998-quoting the journal Nature of the same month).

So, we have ascorbic acid antioxidant pills made for pennies and sold to the public in megadoses for big bucks that do not cure scurvy or its subclinical forms now afflicting legions of Americans. It can speed up the process of clogged arteries. Cancer thrives on it, and it protects tumors. Most of it is wasted and excreted via the kidneys. And it can cause oxidative genetic damage to your DNA. It can't hurt?!

Once again we are faced with the old adage that truth is indeed timeless. From the early 1920s and into the '30s when the discoverer expressed the failure of ascorbic acid to cure scurvy, right up to today when study after study shows that ascorbic acid is not the panacea we are taught to believe, we learn the same lesson. When you extract one component of food and give it at very high doses, you just don't know what you are doing to the system, and it may be adverse.

As for "natural" forms of ascorbic acid, there are none. Linus Pauling, the biggest proponent of ascorbic acid intake, cleared that up when he said, "Ascorbic acid is made from glucose (corn sugar) boiled with sulfuric acid. What is called rose hips (natural) vitamin C is the same pure crystalline ascorbic acid with a bunch of rose hips powder added. The "natural" ascorbic acid is out of the same barrel from Hoffman-LaRoche as the others, but with a pinch of rose hips powder."

What Real Vitamin C Will Do

When you look at the schematic of the whole Vitamin C Complex, you see that the bioflavonoid complexes, enzymes and organic copper, and the other nutritional factors like P, J, and K make up the bulk of vitamin C. The ascorbic acid (C6H8 806) is the protective wrapper. When the whole vitamin C complex is fed to the body, things really happen.

Blood vessels begin to strengthen. Collagen is more readily produced. Bones take up calcium and other minerals properly. Capillaries firm up and bleeding stops. Gums stop bleeding, teeth tighten, and the oxygenation of the cells becomes more efficient. This in turn allows for better circulation to the heart, more oxygenation of the blood, and resultant better heart function. All these changes, including a natural immune system enhancement, can be measured on lab and other tests. These tests will show nothing of the kind with the same consumption of ascorbic acid alone.
In reality, the whole Vitamin C Complex is concentrated food. Prime sources of organic foods condensed into vitamin C supplements are buck wheat, alfalfa, mushrooms, raw bone, carrots, rice bran, raw adrenal, yeast, and more. These make up the raw ingredients of whole Vitamin C Complex supplements like Cataplex C, AC, and ACP from Standard Process.

Next month, I will show you a chromatograph of the actual architecture of the real vitamin C complex vs. ascorbic acid. It is an eye-opener to say the least. In September, 2002, I visited the organic farms owned and operated by Standard Process in Wisconsin. They are virtually the only company left to produce pills from organicallygrown plants in this magnificent fashion. The proof of the real thing will be easy for you to see. When presented with a single pill, subjecting it to the chromatograph machine to make a nutritional image of its contents, the farm' manager could tell me the exact date the product was made and which field the produce came from!

That is a far cry from ascorbic acid.

http://www.juiceguy.com/ascorbic%20acid.shtml
[/list]

plusC

Post Number:#2  Post by plusC » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:39 pm

interesting post I have seen some of this stuff but I have seen too much contradictory information for me to make a clear decision

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Ascorbic Acid is Vitamin C

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:02 pm

First, normally we'd prefer a link to the article, rather than a long article, but this issue is important. A similar misconception at the National Foundation for Alternative Medicine prevented their funding a study of the Pauling heart therapy.

My first reaction is thank goodness for Linus Pauling ( and other scientists such Sherry Lewin and Steve Hickey and H iliary Roberts! ). If what this article says is true, then Linus Pauling is completely wrong about vitamin C.

Sadly, this misinformation is printed at various locations on the internet, usually in some connection to the marketing of a "natural" vitamin C "complex" product.

In the early 1930s, the structure and function of ascorbic acid had just been discovered. Various early quotes were made before much was known about vitamin C. They are meaningless now. For the real words made by Dr. Szent-Gyorgyi, see his 1937 Nobel lecture at

http://nobelprize.org/medicine/laureate ... ecture.pdf

Szent-Gyorgyi wrote:"This was the first proof that ascorbic acid was identical with vitamin C".



Lets start with the opening quote in the post.

For a variety of financial and political reasons, ascorbic acid has been deemed "vitamin C." But actually, ascorbic acid is only the antioxidant factor of a nutritional complex that contains a myriad of nutrients all rolled up into one big ball that we call the Vitamin C Complex.

This nutritional complex is the real vitamin C because it is exactly as found in nature. Ascorbic acid is never found isolated in nature and serves only to protect the whole Vitamin C Complex from degradation. It is much like a preservative in processed foods, providing them with a longer shelf life. The schematic below of the whole Vitamin C Complex and its ascorbic acid fraction will help make this clear.


Who is the author? What is his authority on this subject? The first paragraph is the author's definition of a "Vitamin C Complex."

The second paragraph, however, is erroneous because the author claims the complex is the "real vitamin C," the anti-scurvy factor, and that ascorbic-acid is "never found in nature." In fact, the vast majority of species produce ascorbic acid, not a "complex", in the liver or kidney. So ascorbic acid does appear by itself - naturally - in animals. And the animals that make vitamin C - and only vitamin C - do not suffer scurvy or atherosclerosis. See the Ginter studies in the clinical studies forum for a tip of the massive evidence that vitamin C - ascorbic acid - prevents scurvy, and that an animal deprived of AA suffers scurvy and dies.

The "bioflavonoid complex" appears in plants, not animals. I believe the reasoning that vitamin C protects the "complex" from oxidation, and not visa versa, lacks foundation. In any event, Pauling in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (pg. 117, Softcover, 1986) reports on an early study of the common cold that tested bioflavonoids (no ascorbic acid), vitamin C as ascorbic acid, and vitamin C plus bioflavinoids.

Linus Pauling wrote:"The physician Edme Regnier of Sallem, Massachusettes, reported in 1968 that he had discovered the value of the administration of large doses of ascorbic acid in the prevention and treatment of the common cold. For many years, beginning at the age of seven, he had suffered from repeated bouts of inflammation of the middle ear. He had tried a number of ways of controlling the infections, and after twenty years he tried the bioflavonoids (from citrus fruits) and ascorbic acid. He felt thtat this treatment had been of some benefit but not very great. He decided to try increasing the amount. After several trials he found that the serious and disagreeable manifestations of the common cold and accompanying inflammation of the middle ear could be averted by the use of large amounts of ascorbic acid and that ascorbic acid alone was just as effective as the same amount of ascorbic acid plus bioflavonoids.

he then initiated a study of twenty-one subjects with the use of ascorbic acid alone, ascorbic acid plus bioflavonoids, bioflavonoids alone, or a placebo. This study extended over a period of five years. At first, the subjects were kept ignorant of the preparations that they received, but later on (during the last year) it becamse impossible to continue the blind study, becase a patient whose cold was developing recognized that he was not receiving the vitamin C that might have prevented it."


As far as the points at the end, the #1 (UCLA "report" of arterial thickening) was another hoax and never published. Yes, the walls of the arteries may have thickened, as one would expect taking more vitamin C and stimulating the formation of collagen. However, the researchers had the tools to monitor blood flow and occlusion, but didn't include these measurements in the report to the American Heart Association. I interpreted what was measured as an indicator that the health of the arteries improved in the group taking 500 mg of vitamin C.

See the Hickey/Roberts cancer book CANCER: NUTRITION AND SURVIVAL for the rebuttal of point #2. Yes, vitamin C, at low levels, can "feed" cancer cells, but high enough concentrations are able to stop cancer cell growth, and even higher blood concentrations have been shown (in vitro) by Mark Levine at the NIH to kill cancer cells.

#3. Yes the half-life in the blood stream is 30 minutes (See ASCORBATE: THE SCIENCE OF VITAMIN C by Hickey/Roberts.) Water has a similar half-life. Is that any reason not to consume water? By the way, the half-life in the body (within cells) has been estimated at between 15 and 27 days. (VITAMIN C: ITS BIOLOGY AND MEDICAL POTENTIAL, 1976, Sherry Lewin)

#4. The authors of the NATURE letter that reported this effect on DNA later RETRACTED THEIR CONCERNS. This retraction was not published, except by Ralph Moss in his book on antioxidants. Reference; ANTIOXIDANTS AND CANCER, Ralph Moss.
Last edited by ofonorow on Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Post Number:#4  Post by DanSco » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:24 pm

This Juice Guy has a business and he is competeing against ascorbic acid in pill form. The best way for him to make a living is to dredge up all of the lies and half-truths he can about his competition. This guy seems to think that vitamin C only comes from plants. He also obviously has no idea that 99%+ of animal species make their own ascorbic acid in their livers and never need a dietary source of ascorbic acid or the 'complex' that some plants have. Animal's livers don't need to make complexes or bioflavonoids either! I will agree that a reasonable amount of those bioflavonoids and other 'factors' are probably healthy for anyone to eat. In any event, I will continue to consume that glucose boiled with sulfuric acid!!
-DanSco

Note: I am not a doctor nor do I pretend to be one on the internet. Do not duplicate what I do without a pat on the head from your doctor and a note from your mommy.

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Post Number:#5  Post by DanSco » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:08 pm

Now that I look thru the Juice Guy site, I see that he has many health positions that I do agree with.

In my last post I assumed that he had a business selling something containing 'vitamin C complex'. Now I can't help but wonder how he pays for the web site and all of the professional looking web page programming if he has no income from the site.
-DanSco

Note: I am not a doctor nor do I pretend to be one on the internet. Do not duplicate what I do without a pat on the head from your doctor and a note from your mommy.

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Post Number:#6  Post by Ralph Lotz » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:54 pm

After examining his website, I have come to the conclusion that the Juice Guy is a menace.
With all of the time that it took him to gather this alphabet soup of disinformation, I can only conclude that he must be a closet quackbuster.

Ascorbic acid is the single greatest substance for ameliorating human disease and suffering that has ever been discovered.
Visit http://www.vitamincproject.com

Don't waste your time with this Juice Guy nonscience.
Visit http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:33 am

Ralph,
The Juice Guy is so wrong on vitamin C that I too suspect he was really working for the dark side, but I beliieve it is more likely that he got caught up in the Standard Process net.

Standard Process was originally established by Royal Lee, the founder of the natural vitamin movement. SP has (used to have) a fine reputation, and they seem to have an exclusive marketing channel to Chiropractors.

Anyway, Standard Process lectured to the National Foundation for Alternative Medicine (and surely others acress the country) that "vitamin C isn't vitamin C." That the complex is vitamin C, etc. This confused some very bright people at the NFAM and Chiropractors alike. It made such an impact because it came from a previously credible source - Standard Process. (I remember going to their web site, after hearing about this, wondering what was in their vitamin C - and sure enough, even standard process uses "synthetic" ascorbic acid.)

If we want to track the souce of the misinformation, we'd have to find out who at Standard Process was influenced to rewrite the structure and function of ascorbic acid. (Standard Process would naturally be receptive to such a vitamin C story, pardon the pun.)
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Post Number:#8  Post by CPlus » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:58 am

There's a company called Cytoplan in the UK who are very keen on their 'Food State' vitamins. Their vitamin C is prepared from pulped oranges and they claim it improves the absorption of the vitamin many times over compared to synthetic ascorbic acid. Although it is true that animals don't make use of bioflavonoids, they also make their ascorbic acid in their liver for a direct feed into the blood. Humans have to get their ascorbic acid to go through the stomach. Could the 'Food State' part of the vitamin C improve that part of the process?

I'm not arguing a defence for the juice guy, by the way. I'm just interested when a company like Cytoplan who are very focussed on alternative health are against taking pure ascorbic acid.

Jonathan

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Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:36 pm

CPlus wrote:There's a company called Cytoplan in the UK who are very keen on their 'Food State' vitamins. Their vitamin C is prepared from pulped oranges and they claim it improves the absorption of the vitamin many times over compared to synthetic ascorbic acid. Although it is true that animals don't make use of bioflavonoids, they also make their ascorbic acid in their liver for a direct feed into the blood. Humans have to get their ascorbic acid to go through the stomach. Could the 'Food State' part of the vitamin C improve that part of the process?

I'm not arguing a defence for the juice guy, by the way. I'm just interested when a company like Cytoplan who are very focussed on alternative health are against taking pure ascorbic acid.

Jonathan


Science, repeatable experimental science is very clear. The ascorbate ion is vitamin C, most commonly in the form of Hydrogen Ascorbate - ascorbic acid.

Early research showed there was no additional benefit by adding bioflavonoids to vitamin C.

The argument regarding "absorption" is specious. If the vitamin C you take is not absorbed, it makes its way to the rectum where you suffer diahhrea. So if one takes ascorbic acid, or sodium ascorbate, and does not experience diahhrea, the vitamin was absorbed.

Now, I hate to assist the marketing of various "natural products" but there is a way these product could be superior, and that is if they make the vitamin C more bioavailable. Clearly, this is Lypo-C's great benefit. The vitamin in a nanoparticle does not break down in the gut during digestion.

But the only evidence of improved bioavailability has to do with the J. Vinson research, and a small study on aloe vera. (These two may be related).

I found this,
http://www.health.co.uk/vitamin-c.asp
and if the UK company you mention is promoting their "Vinson" properties, there may actually be some benefits. Note that they are claiming "slower" absorption leading to high bioavailability.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Post Number:#10  Post by CPlus » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:22 am

Interesting that many of the references to the J.Vinson research say 'unpublished data'. Can you rely on any conclusions that someone has reached when the way in which they reached it has not been published? There is enough data out there that has been published but obtained by dubious science without considering conclusions that haven't been published!

He is claiming a twelve-fold increase in bioavailablity. Does that mean you would get the same effect with one gram of their product as with 12 grams of pure ascorbic acid? If so that is pretty impressive.

Jonathan


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