Effects of suddenly reducing Vitamin C levels

[antioxidant_addict]

Have just proved again how good Vitamin C is with regard to stopping infections getting out of control...

As a regular swimmer, I always seem to suffer from blocked sinuses. This maybe a Chorine allergy or it could be
that there's so much bacteria in the pool that my daily dosage of 20-25000mg kills the runny nose by late afternoon.
Note that my head is under water most of the time whilst swimming.

Anyway, I forgot to bring my daily dosages for two days to my girlfriends house and took 2-3x1500mg timed release
tabs, (a bottle of which I gave to her). Part of the weekend included going to the Cinema, and shopping in big supermarkets.

RESULT : I woke up this morning at 3am with a sore throat so got up and immediately took 10,000mg of standard AA tabs.
with water. I can feel a cold coming on.

I was awake at 6am and have taken 4 x 8000mg to BT and will take 4000mg every 60 minutes.

I will NOT to forget taking my normal AA amount if this happens every time!!

Has everybody else experienced unwelcome infections as soon as high dosages are suddenly reduced?

Steve

[johnor]

Hi,
No, I haven't had that experience consistently. My sinuses seem to remain clear for the full day( i have had lifelong sinus problems before taking C).

Salud,
John

[antioxidant_addict]

Its a cold. Thought it could actually have been hay fever, but its a sore throat trying to which turned into an itchy cough.

Woke up this morning doesn't seem to that bad. Took 10grams before bed then woke up at 4am and took another 10gms.

Just had another 10grams....I WILL NOT let this cold take over!


CONCLUSION : I think once your body gets used to 20,000mgs or so a day over a long period, any ruduction can make any infection
your body is fighting attempt to get the upper hand. Vitamin C covers up infections and must prevent viral infections from growing due to
the enhanced workings of the immune system. You simply don't notice that you've got an infection, just a runny nose (which could be the result
of other things.)

Maybe I should change swimming pools....

Steve

[J.Lilinoe]

Even though I was taking BT vit C, I came down with the flu last week and am still recovering from it. Symptoms included some fever, throbbing head, sore throat, little coughing, stuffy ears, fatigue and heart palpatations but it was all very tolerable considering that I have felt way worse before discovering BT Vit C. My doctor said that the flu bug is going around but I don't think you are going to suffer as much as others who haven't been taking Vit C period so just relax.

[Dottore]

It's called rebound scurvy. Happens all the time. The body "tools up" for the heavy load of Vit C when you take megadoses and the sudden shock of not finding any makes it look for Vit C. Depletion of tissue (every body cell contains some Vit C) follows, progressing to scurvy.
Dottore

[bruno31]

Well, it happened to my father : I had convinced him to take several grams of C/day, but he didn't listen to my warnings and stopped taking it during a travel. It didn't take long to get the result : a severe cold... And of course, he didn't believe me and got to think that vit C is useless/bad...

It's incredible how people can be careful with drugs and their dosage, schedule, doctor's instructions, etc, but can virtually be careless when dealing with vitamins or "natural" remedies... however, protocol is as important for vitamins as for drugs (to my father's discharge, one may point out that many doctors and researchers also seem to forget this... )

Remember Pauling : "Although physicians, as part of their training, are taught that the dosage of a drug that is prescribed for the patient must be very carefully determined and controlled, they seem to have difficulty in remembering that the same principle applies to the vitamins" !

[antioxidant_addict]

Apart from a runny nose, the cold (or is it hayfever??) is gone. No more sore dry throat, cough, headache.

There does appear to have been a couple of colds going around in the last 4 weeks. A friend of mine
had one and my Mother came home from the US with a cold so maybe I got infected twice all within
24-48 hours...Oh, she hadn't been taking her usual 1-2grams of C and my father said the cold was a bad one...
He HAD been taking it, and didn't catch it.

Note that when I forgotten to bring along my regular dosages, I did take 4500mg of timed release...

Yes, I've hear of the rebound scurvy effect, but isn't that when intravenous dosages are used?

I don't pretend to understand the process however...

Ste

[johnor]

Hi,
I'm wondering why Dottore can be so sure that rebound scurvy occurs 'all the time'. Since so few big studies are done with large amounts of Vitamin C what clinical proof can Dottore provide that rebound scruvy occurs all that much. Also how long does it last since bodies are homeostatic and tend to even out extremes over time? I have stopped taking 15,000 mg of C for a few days and just observed myself slowly receding to my previous chronic conditions - stuffy sinuses and joint pains.

Awaiting your response
John

[Dottore]

It's good to be a doubting Thomas but one can look a bit silly .
Since you are asking only for "clinical proof", I will just mention my long association with the two founders of Orthomolecular Medicine and my clinical experience of over thirty years.
When Pauling told me ages ago that rebound scurvy is something to be reckoned with I had no doubts about the veracity of the statement. Nor do I have any now.

As to my exact words, by the way, the expression "occurs all the time" could be applied to myself seeing gray crows all the time. It wouldn't mean I see gray crows every living minute or every time I go out, just that they seem to be very common. No one can know about the exact mechanism of rebound scurvy and there have been many doubters that it even occurs.
When I have concerns about these things I ask those who do know best.
Dottore

[JayZee]

I've witnessed rebound scurvy in one of my kids, it's real unpleasant and simple to avoid.

Don't miss a day.


the experience taught me the analogy that vitamin c in theraputic doses is kinda like a harmless version of prednisone in that you should build up your mega dose gradually and if for any reason you need to lower it you should decline the dose gradually.

I forget which author said it, he's on the website somewhere anyway he stated that vitamin c should be looked at not as a vitamin but more of a (missing?) hormone.Owen help me out here!

[ofonorow]

It's good to be a doubting Thomas but one can look a bit silly .
Since you are asking only for "clinical proof", I will just mention my long association with the two founders of Orthomolecular Medicine and my clinical experience of over thirty years.
When Pauling told me ages ago that rebound scurvy is something to be reckoned with I had no doubts about the veracity of the statement. Nor do I have any now.

When I have concerns about these things I ask those who do know best.
Dottore

"The discontinuation (rebound) effect may not be very important for most people" - Linus Pauling, HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (Page 265, Softcover, 1986)

I didn't read johnor as asking for clinical proof, just more information about studies with large amounts of vitamin C. Furthermore Dottore, your arguments appeal to authority, but how do we know that you aren't really Stephen Barrett writing from his basement in Allentown PA? Forum memebers judge other members by what they write and know, not who they claim to know.

Pauling (and Cameron) rewrote the same basic information about the discontinuation or so-called "rebound effect" in the later book CANCER AND VITAMIN C (Ewan Cameron, Linus Pauling, 1992, pg 117-118 softcover).

THE REBOUND EFFECT
When a person regularly ingests about 150 mg of vitamin C per day the ascorbate concentration in the blood plasma is about 1.5 mg per 100 milli?liters. It was observed in 1973 (Harris, Robinson, and Pauling; Spero and Anderson) that when the amount ingested is increased to several grams per day the plasma ascorbate concentration rises to about 2.5 mg per 100 milli?liters and then, with the same high intake, decreases over a few days to about the original value, 1.5.

This phenomenon is well known in bacteria. It is called induced enzyme formation. In the case of vitamin C in human beings, we assume that there are enzymes that help to convert ascorbate to certain oxidation products. It is known that these oxidation products serve a useful purpose?they have been shown to have anticancer activity in mice, and presumably are similarly effective in human beings. The ascorbate itself also is valuable, and accord?ingly on a low intake the body manufactures only a small number of the enzyme molecules, in order to conserve the ascorbate. When the high intake is begun more enzyme molecules are manufactured, in order to convert the extra ascorbate to the useful oxidation products, instead of simply allowing the excess to be excreted in the urine. These oxidation products, which as yet have not been thoroughly studied, may provide an important part of the mechanism by which large doses of vitamin C help to control cancer and other diseases.

From the foregoing argument we would expect that when a person who has been on a high intake of vitamin C for some time suddenly reverts to his original low intake the enzymes, present in large number, would operate to convert most of the ingested ascorbate to its oxidation products, leaving him with a dangerously low concentration of ascorbate in the blood. This effect has been observed; it is called the rebound effect. It lasts for only a few days. by which time the enzyme molecules present in excess have been destroyed and the number remaining has reached the value appropriate to the low intake. There is some evidence that during the period of the rebound effect the susceptibility to infections is increased; the control of cancer might also be less at this time. It is accordingly recommended that a high intake of vitamin C not be suddenly stopped, even for one day; instead it should be gradually decreased, over a period of several days, if a decrease is deemed to be necessary.

[Dottore]

Furthermore Dottore, your arguments appeal to authority, but how do we know that you aren't really Stephen Barrett writing from his basement in Allentown PA? Forum memebers judge other members by what they write and know, not who they claim to know.

No, I am not Barrett. I can see that you are still smarting from my comments in which I pointed out your lack of accuracy, which was in fact a totally inaccurate misquote of one of the greates men in Medicine. You took some factoids out of thin air and wrote what you claim to know. In reality you didn't know .
I guess you, too, will be judged.
Pauling, Hoffer, Riordan et al believed in the existence of rebound scurvy.

It's what I know, not what I claim to know.
Dottore

[Ralph Lotz]

Pauling's discussion on rebound scurvy begins in paragraph 2 on page 356 in Chapter 28.
Paragraph 4 ends with the statement, "The discontinuation effect may not be very important for most people."

On page 357, paragraph 3:
" Dr. Ewan Cameron and I, however, pointed out in our book Cancer and Vitamin C (1979) that the discontinuation effect might be dangerous for cancer patients and recommended that the intake not be stopped for these patients even for a single day. This question is discussed further in Chapter 19."

[Dottore]

Pauling stated many times that "in practice" the rebound effect seemed to produce few objective symptoms.
I have been practicing OM for more years than I care to remember and I have had many discussions with the great master . I can assure you that the rebound effect is being taken seriously.
As to the temporary interruption or severe restriction of the vit C dose in cancer therapy, this can become necessary due to a phenomenon similar to the Herxheimer Reaction.
Dottore

[Ralph Lotz]

Understood. I am familiar with Riordan's work.