Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo reading?

[ofonorow]

[Johnwen]

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

Hi Johnwen, here is Emek's response.

I don't understand his logic as it lacks the math to back it up.

The ratio of lipid to vitamin c is specific to the liposome diameter... you cannot generalize.

Where is the 4 to 1 ratio from? His argument is akin to saying that you need 4 kg of bottle to hold 1 kg (1 liter) of water. Furthermore, we have conclusive clinical data showing the system works (pharmacokinetics).

Also, lipos that are used for in pharmaceuticals are usually lipophillic drugs.

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

Hi johnwen - first link isn't working (at least for me) get an Ooops message re slideshow.

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

Link works at work.

Don't shoot the messenger. This is an interesting discussion..

This is where he is going wrong with his math. It's surface area of the sphere with density of lipid packing approximates the amount of liposomal membrane needed (you could also do sphere in a sphere too with delta of the radii being the membrane thickness and use density of the lipid packing).

The math I sent you before is simplified and assumes that vitamin c packs at the same density the lipids do (vitamin c is more compact than the lipids and ionic and packs much more densely).

This individual is missing a variety of points: 1. His math does not represent the system, 2. Loading rate is specific to liposome diameter and lipid material, there is no general rule for this, 3. My 1 kg water bottles does not have 4 kg of plastic to hold it, 4. This conversation is somewhat irrelevant as the liposomes work (we are interested in the outcome).

I think it's ironic that he states that the math is lengthy (this is true) but uses a single equation with one variable for his entire argument. The variables are packing density of lipid and vitamin c, liposome radius, pH, temperature, ionic strength of solution, and more. For instance, we us the same amount of lipid for half as much glutathione.

Another point of irony. If you plug in the numbers correctly to the website he provided, http://www.liposomemodel.com, it supports our lipid / vitamin c ratio (I think he did not calculate molarity correctly and underestimated it).

The website also uses a different math model than his sphere in a sphere model.

Once again though, the liposomal c works and is proven clinically in university studies. http://cctsi.ucdenver.edu/Public%20Documents/newsletters/CCTSI-Connections-FallWinter2013.pdf. This will be published soon.

I don't know how my car works in detail but it gets me to my destination.

[Johnwen]

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

I admit I am having trouble following where this is going? I thought the main issue (after why didn't the glucose meters pick up on vitamin C in the blood when taken at the same time as liposomal vitamin C) was essentially: How can Empirical/Blair claim nearly 100% encapsulation.

I am sure there is speculation how and why liposomes work, and my current issue is whether they can in fact be ten times as effective as IV/C directly into the vein. But even if we can demonstrate this, we have to speculate on the reasons why, if true. (And Colorado State as initiated a startup company that hopes to take advantage of the machrophage's ability to gobble up liposomes - as a means to fight cancers. Another story.)

So back to what we think we know. We have Hickey's graph of oral vitamin C in the blood, both powder and liposomal, and I am told I will soon be able to share Empiricals/CSU's charts of their study. (Maybe it was in Emek's link, but I was unable to open it...)

#1. Vitamin C delivered via liposomes is measured in the blood peaking between hours 2 and 3 after ingestion.

#2. Levels in the Hickey study were comparable between powder and Liposomal. (I think they gave a very high dosage of powder.)

#3. The Empirical/CSU measurements were higher than the liposomal Hickey used (Livon's I believe) and they lasted longer in the blood (levels had not dropped down to baseline after 10 hours)

#4 Ascorbic acid by itself can peak rapidly in the blood (e.g 20 minutes). It is unknown (by me) if there is a secondary spike at hours 2-3, i.e. if some ascorbic acid also travels down the GI tract (rather than is absorbed directly through the stomach lining.)

Some speculation.

A) Liposomal works better than IV/C even though IV/C immediately raises blood levels 1000s of times over oral. The "pharmokenetics" of liposomal resemble what we see with sodium ascorbate orally - it takes a while to make it into the blood stream. Yet, fighting infection with an ascorbate salt is not as effective as liposomal? Why? Lindi just mailed me and I encouraged her to post her result of a test of one bottle of Emek/Quali-c liposomal at the end of her original description of her "intractable" infections. http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11596
Her main interest is ending her lingering infection. Mine is the example (independent test) of Emek's liposomes encapsulating DSM Quali-C. One reason it works better might be because IV/C blows its wad quickly - and out the kidneys - not enough can enter cells no matter what the blood concentration rises to.

It would seem that a likely reason (other than immune cell take up) is higher concentrations of vitamin C entering cells (but then why does it linger in the blood so much longer, e.g. 10 hours?)

Supporting the idea that liposomal vitamin C increases intracellular concentrations..


Targeted intracellular delivery of therapeutics: an overview.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=17944316

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

Here are 3 different liposomal products under a video microscope. The question still is how do the Blair-process spheres make it intact into the blood stream?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wOmiXqwQKmI