Vitamin K

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#16  Post by ofonorow » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

johnjackson wrote:I dont know if the lp(a) test was calculated or not.
Measuring lp(a) is the best way to test lp(a), not calculated?


Major high volume labs probably calculate. VAP test (now defunct) used to measure, as will various labs. Only way to know is contact lab and ask for measured Lp(a) and see what they say? I walked into my hospital once, to double check VAP score, and the hospital measured (and matched).

--you think the blood thinner he is on to prevent strokes of his A=Fib, causes his A-Fib?
lil paradox there!
he takes some blood thinners and
pradaxa-prevents stroke

diltiazem hydrocholoride--not sure, calcium blocker to slow Heart rate?
sotalol-treats arrhymia?
and for BP, lisinopri--ace inhibitor

The BP meds are most concerning because he isnt fat, BMI 26
so if his arteries were good, he would make enough Nitrix oxide to not have high BP


Hope johnwen stops by - may move this to heart forum - as he can comment on the drugs. Yes, often drugs prescribed can make the problems worse, especially for cardiovascular disease where vitamin C (lack there of) is the primary root cause, yet unknown to cardiologists. Some drugs "okay" but it is hard to keep straight.. Most people learning of Pauling's therapy can do well by staying on the proper dosage of vitamin C and lysine - and weaning off all or most other drugs.

The basic rule - if you have heart disease, start taking vitamin C and lysine, at least 5 to 6 grams of each daily.


so I'll suggest he get a CAC test....but if it is HIGH, will that change what he does?o he is 70 and doesnt like MDs or taking pills,
so lets say he has a high lp(a) and a high CAC test...what to do? cause it all seems


Again, testing not really necessary to start basic therapy, only to know how important adding vitamin K might be, but if on a "blood thinner" then we already know he should be adding vitamin K2.
take 10+grams vit C/day spread out over the day, like 1gram every 2-3 hours
take 5+ Lysine/proline
take Vit k2(at least 2 caps from LEF works well)

so that is the basic Pauling therapy plan?

Generally yes, the 1 gram per hour is more for keeping blood levels of vitamin C high to control cancer.

2.5 grams - twice per day, (5 g of each) is the beginning of the (low) therapeutic dose of both lysine and vitamin C.
Less than 1 gram daily of proline seems to be necessary, and the body can synthesize its own proline.
One Super-K, in my personal case, taking high vitamin C and lysine, worked. Note that vitamin K, like Vitamin C, has been shown to extend life (lower mortality.)


What about other ways to reduce chance of heart disease?
Levy talks about making sure hormones are in range. like thyroid, and testosterone and removing root canals
so I"ll see if I can get him to get a blood test nec

Root canal problem is serious because it depletes the body of the (normally little) vitamin C supply.
All other issues, other than vitamin C, are secondary w/r to heart disease (Thank you Linus Pauling)
Hopefully you and other readers are getting the idea. There is no substitute for a lack of vitamin C, and therapeutic dosages of lysine can reverse the condition (when ADDED to vitamin C)


I mentioned he hates pills...so I have read about success with Cardio-C or Heart tech.
are these powders?
-I am not sure about him supplementing any vit E or cioQ10, he does eat a lot of broccoli((vitE)

The major feature of the Cardio-C and Heart Technology products is that they are drink mixes, minus fillers, and avoid scores and scores of pills.

However, unless your friend enjoys the company of cardiologists and being in hospitals, he can suffer a few vitamin C and lysine pills.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#17  Post by johnjackson » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:10 am

thanks for the information
-would you elaborate about your "personal case taking vit C and lysine"?
did you have a high CAC or Lp(a) and then it was lowered with Pauling therapy?
--I saw on some page that you showed no signs of Heart disease at all, did you are one time have heart disease?

Im not trying to do anything more than find support for what I'm doing and telling others to do!
I think the biggest support for vit C to treat heart disease is that animals make it AND vit C(collagen) is needed to fix up arteries

-I noted what you said about the body making it's own proline and I thought i read on this forum, that some people didnt respond to Pauling therapy UNTIL they added proline...why would that be?
I use the same logic to add vit K2 to my pills, even though I eat lots of vit k via veggies, if the body made/converted k1->k2, then k2 would have no effect.


I did a basic google search for Afib ab and vit C and found

-Atrial fibrillation complicates 25% to 40% of cardiac surgical procedures.
Small study-100 patients who had received preoperative β-blocker therapy were randomized to receive vitamin C or placebo. Vitamin C was given in a dose of 2,000 mg the night before the procedure and 1,000 mg twice daily for 5 more days. Patients were monitored continuously for 4 days after surgery. During that period of observation, the authors report an amazing 85% reduction in postoperative atrial fibrillation.

This claim is nothing less than dramatic. The most safe and effective atrial fibrillation prophylaxis to date, β-blockers reduce the incidence of atrial fibrillation from about 40% to 30%. Sotalol is slightly more effective, but barely enough to be clinically significant. Amiodarone is even more effective but requires an often-impractical preoperative loading period or intravenous administration, the complications and side effects of which may be highly problematic. Unfortunately, vitamin C evokes the image of Linus Pauling—Nobel laureate, chemist, genius, and, to many, purveyor of preposterous claims and initiator of the ongoing, somewhat insane mega-vitamin craze. With this pedigree, why would any new claim for the ascendancy of vitamin C provoke anything but doubt? Yet, there are sufficient physiologic data to support the concept and additional data in human beings, which I will review momentarily.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1995055/

I'm not pasting this to show support for drugs, but only that it seems something as cheap/side effect free as vit C is being looked at my medical establishment?





The major feature of the Cardio-C and Heart Technology products is that they are drink mixes, minus fillers, and avoid scores and scores of pills.
.
[/quote]
good call
Im gonna see if he prefers pills or powders, as he MUST do one or the other.

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#18  Post by jimmylesante » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:54 am

my experience of a fib is ....it is multiple firing of areas in the atrium at different times. i.e they are not synchronised which generally the SA node helps do, But remember the SA node is not the only firing point for signals.
I was in the ER and watching my colleague try every single drug on an Afib and cardiovert him twice. The attending eventually said lets send him down to the cath lab for ablation.
I requested if we would lose anything by doing 3g Magnesium over 10mins then 1g per hour for 6hrs. 7mins later this young 60yr old was in normal sinus rhythm.
I later had paroxysmal afib with rvr myself and ended up on amiodarone drip. thereafter i had 200mg potassium and 400mg magnesium orally.

My point being afib is most likely a conduction issue which means a deficiency in potassium/magnesium/calcium or too much of one.
Vit c is a calcium chelator and perhaps that helps with conduction issues??

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#19  Post by johnjackson » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:51 am

jimmylesante wrote:My point being afib is most likely a conduction issue which means a deficiency in potassium/magnesium/calcium or too much of one.
Vit c is a calcium chelator and perhaps that helps with conduction issues??

I"m not sure why He has A-fib, I spoke to him recently and he hasnt had an AFib episode since july 18
and he attributes that to vit C(maybe) cause he started taking 5-7 grams daily abot a year ago)2/18
BUT
I also had to deal with him taking more magnessium even though his cardiologist said dont,
so he's on a few RX;s
-advair
metaformin(Ac1 6)
dilitiazem HCL
pradaxa
solatol HCL
Losatran(to replace lisinporil)

both he and his wife(both 71) have blood pressure issues, which make me think they have some calcium and would have a high CAC
because I have them both on a low fat/Ornish diet(lots of fruit/veggies,,high nitrates to give lots of Nitric oxides)

so the solution to a high CAC would be
vit k2
lysine/proline
5+ grams vit C over a day

He lifts weights and does cardio 2-3x a week

how much vit k2 is recomended

I think he should get on HRT , as he has low testostrone.300 range and high eastrail, 30-45)

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#20  Post by ofonorow » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:38 am

CCME is an 1994 treatment for heart disease invented by a friend of Linus Pauling, the late Brian Leibovitz. PhD, and editor of the Journal of Optimal Nutrition.

CCME: L-Carnitine, Coenzyme Q10, Magnesium, And Vitamin E

http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/jon.html

I was struck by jimmylesante's person experience with magnesium. Here is the section on magnesium
Magnesium

Magnesium is now recognized as a first-line medicine for the treatment of heart attacks. , A study published in The Lancet, for example, reported the effects of a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study in 2,316 patients with suspected myocardial infarction. The dose of magnesium was high (about 8.7 grams given intravenously over a 24 hour period), but the results were remarkable: magnesium reduced cardiovascular mortality by 25 percent. The author/s conclusion:

"Intravenous magnesium sulfate is a simple, safe, and widely applicable treatment. Its efficacy in reducing early mortality of myocardial infarction is comparable to, but independent of, that of thrombolytic or antiplatelet therapy."

These findings have been confirmed and reconfirmed in many clinics and laboratories. Teo and colleagues, for example, in an analysis of seven clinical studies, concluded that magnesium (in doses of 5-10 grams by intravenous injection) reduced the odds of death by an astounding 55%.


We have discussed various diets, ad nauseum. What works for someone may not work for another. Advising anyone to be on a specific diet is taking a risk - with their health and your credibility. The low-fat diet assumes facts not in evidence, i.e., that high fat is the cause of heart disease. It isn't, low vitamin C is. By eating low fat, there must be more carbs, which break down into sugars, which compete with vitamin C for entry into cells.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#21  Post by johnjackson » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:08 am

ofonorow wrote:
[b][color=#000080]We have discussed various diets, ad nauseum. What works for someone may not work for another. Advising anyone to be on a specific diet is taking a risk - with their health and your credibility. The low-fat diet assumes facts not in evidence, i.e., that high fat is the cause of heart disease. It isn't, low vitamin C is. By eating low fat, there must be more carbs, which break down into sugars, which compete with vitamin C for entry into cells.


I have to disagree here,

All diets work...(working defined as "losing weight") anyone saying, "Im gaiing weight" or "I'm only eating water and sunshine and still gaining weight"
is either consciously or unconscious lying
"But my body is adapting! and burning less calories:
the minnesota starvation experiment --- men were put on 50% of their maintenance calories, subject to forced daily activity (walking, NO weight training) and basically had their lives controlled and managed for 6 months
by the end of the study the total drop in metabolic rate was nearly 40%. That is, of the original 50% deficit in calories, 80% of it had been offset. Of that 40%, a full 25% was simply due to the reduced bodyweight. Again, lighter bodies burn less calories and there’s no getting around it. But that also means that the adaptive component of metabolic rate reduction was only 15%. Which is about the largest drop ever measured (most studies measure less).

again, 15% metabolic drop by guys (single digit bodyfat) so anyone who is fatter(like everyone) isnt going to have an issue on a physiological level losing fat/weight
mentally- yes the guys in the study were isolated for 6 months and reported dreams of food, talking about food, everything about food

Yes, a lot fat diet requires more carbs to get calorie levels (but you are lighter, and need less calories after losing fat)
but eating more veggies(starch based or not) isnt going to get you fatter
the body rarely turns carbs into fat
who has gotten fat from eating too many vegetables or fruit?

I agree that the myth of "high fat diet causes heart disease" is a myth.....
my love of low fat is more nitric oxide

compliance is hard for some...there are lots of ways to gain compliance.

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#22  Post by jimmylesante » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:51 pm

"Intravenous magnesium sulfate is a simple, safe, and widely applicable treatment. Its efficacy in reducing early mortality of myocardial infarction is comparable to, but independent of, that of thrombolytic or antiplatelet therapy."


It great for medical cardiac issues and conveniently forgotten in favour of drugs.
Also....interesting fact if you push mag sulfate it causes "orgasms" in females.

Just had an 8g vit c drip with 1g mag sulfate and 200mg selenium.

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#23  Post by johnjackson » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:45 pm

jimmylesante wrote:Also....interesting fact if you push mag sulfate it causes "orgasms" in females.


please elaborate how i can find this out!!
give a women a few grams of MG? or does it have to be an IV drip?

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#24  Post by jimmylesante » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:04 am

give a women a few grams of MG? or does it have to be an IV drip?
An IV push.

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#25  Post by johnjackson » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:33 am

jimmylesante wrote:give a women a few grams of MG? or does it have to be an IV drip?
An IV push.

well nuts
I dont have IV MG!

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#26  Post by jimmylesante » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:35 pm

I am going to try it on my wife and see if it is true!

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Re: Vitamin K

Post Number:#27  Post by johnjackson » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:50 am

jimmylesante wrote:I am going to try it on my wife and see if it is true!


let us know how it goes

also
try a few mg of yohimbine HCL

try it fasting, as long as you dont have high blood pressure
and have her try it
if anything, she'll shed fat


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