High Lp(a)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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High Lp(a)

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Sat May 08, 2021 9:11 am

Hi

I have been doing Pauling therapy ( 6g vitc , 3g lysine, 500mg Niacin) for 3 months now and my cholesterol numbers are still very high ( tot. 304 trig. 66 hdl 60 ldl 223) but even more worrying my liprotein a, measured for the first time was 118.8. I was convinced it would be low but I’m really worried now.

I don’t have any specific heart problems , just mild hypertension, some deposits on lower aorta while carotids are basically clear.

What am I doing wrong? The dose?

Please help.

Thank You
Regards
M. V.
Italy


Glad that you are feeling well.

The high total cholesterol indicates that you are not supplementing enough vitamin C. Your dose of vitamin C is in the preventive range, not Linus Pauling's therapeutic range, which begins at around 6 grams. Slowly increase your vitamin C to bowel tolerance, and when your total cholesterol is less than 200 mg/dl, you are consuming about the right amount of vitamin C.

I notice that you are not supplementing proline, which we have learned has the most direct effect on Lp(a) levels.

Recently I have learned that fats in the diet can interfere with the absorption of vitamin C. It is best to reduce fats to a minimum.
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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Sat May 08, 2021 11:44 am

Thanks for your quick answer. I was on the Ketogenic diet, guess thats ruled out now.
I have just ordered proline and will up the vit c.


Sorry to bother you again, ALL fats, even fish, avocado, nuts?


The source I recently found (Anthony William, Medical Medium) suggests that plant fats are better because they stay in the blood for a lesser time period, so they are preferred over than animal fats.

Here is an overview KETO'S FATAL FLAW http://vitamincfoundation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14678 that I wrote after reading all of William's books.

The issue with Keto is that glucose is a vitally important nutrient, required by the brain and liver.
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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Sat May 08, 2021 2:28 pm

I have been doing Pauling therapy ( 6g vitc , 3g lysine, 500mg Niacin) for 3 months now and ...

What am I doing wrong? The dose?


You haven't even started doing the Pauling protocol. That's what Linus Pauling recommended in his '86 book just to maintain good health:

How to Live Longer and Feel Better

  • Take vitamin C every day, 6 grams to 18 g (6000 to 18,000 milligrams), or more. Do not miss a single day.
  • Take vitamin E every day, 400 IU, 800 IU, or 1600 IU.
  • Take one or two Super-B tablets every day, to provide good amounts of the B-vitamins.
  • Take 25,000 IU vitamin A tablet every day.
  • Take a mineral supplement every day, such as one tablet of the Bronson vitamin-mineral formula, which provides 100 mg of calcium, 18 mg of iron, 0.15 mg of iodine, 1 mg of copper, 25 mg of magnesium, 3 mg of manganese, 15 mg of zinc, 0.015 mg of molybdenum, 0.015 mg of chromium, and 0.015 mg of selenium.
  • Keep your intake of ordinary sugar (sucrose, raw sugar, brown sugar, honey) to 50 pounds per year, which is half the present U.S. average. Do not add sugar to tea or coffee. Do not eat high-sugar foods. Avoid sweet desserts. Do not drink soft drink.
  • Except for avoiding sugar, eat what you like - but not too much of any one food. Eggs and meat are good foods. Also you should eat some vegetables and fruits. Do not eat so much food as to become obese.
  • Drink plenty of water every day.
  • Keep active; take some exercise. Do not at any time exert yourself physically to an extent far beyond what you are accustomed to.
  • Drink alcoholic beverages only in moderation.
  • Do not smoke cigarettes.
  • Avoid stress. Work at a job that you like. Be happy with your family.


Additionally 6 g/d of lysine against CVD.

The advise of the MedicalMedium Oven promotes these day is in complete contradiction to Linus Pauling's protocol. I wouldn't take the risks proceeding out of blind belief, which also Pauling disadvised.

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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Thu May 13, 2021 10:10 am

pamojja wrote:The advise of the MedicalMedium Oven promotes these day is in complete contradiction to Linus Pauling's protocol. I wouldn't take the risks proceeding out of blind belief, which also Pauling disadvised.


In your opinion pamojja, which I would take more seriously if you had read these works. "Complete contradiction" is simply not true, i.e. the knowledge provided by Anthony William is in no way "in complete contradiction to Linus Pauling's protocol".

I'm scratching my head wondering where the idea of a contradiction comes from in your mind? Glucose? I know from speaking with Dr. Ely that he was disappointed that Pauling hadn't signed on to his Glucose-Ascorbate Antagonism (GAA) theory. Yes Pauling warned us about the dangers of fructose, and I fully agree with his assessment (esp. at the high levels in the typical American diet these days.) The new, and important knowledge, if true, is that glucose (and thus insulin) is required for the body to metabolize all nutrients.

I have used this knowledge to enhance, not contradict, my vitamin C and lysine supplementation. I no longer fear glucose (but yes, personally I still do fear fructose).

Fat? Maybe the contradiction in your mind has to do with MM suggesting that fat in the diet should be reduced to 15% of calories? Certainly, Pauling had no fear about fat in the diet, that's true. The MM arguments are compelling, and so far without any obvious error. Reducing fat in the blood, increases the oxygen levels in the blood (as these O2 levels are what trigger the liver's release of bile), increasing the production of bile puts a strain on the liver, and more bile is required the more fat there is in the blood, and fat (not glucose) blocks cell receptors inhibiting the uptake of glucose and other nutrients including vitamin C.

And then there are those pesky Dean Ornish (and the like low-fat studies), that I never understood, all showing the high value of low and very-low-fat diet with respect to heart disease, especially when compared to Paleo or keto diets.

There are always the intuit Eskimos who Pauling wrote about. It would be fun to ask MM about these people who have adapted (without ketosis) to an almost totally high fat (blubber) diet.

I see no direct contradiction with the Pauling/Rath theory of heart disease, which postulates that the cause is a lack of vitamin C and that vitamin C and lysine can reverse the condition.
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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#5  Post by pamojja » Thu May 13, 2021 3:24 pm

ofonorow wrote:Fat? Maybe the contradiction in your mind has to do with MM suggesting that fat in the diet should be reduced to 15% of calories? Certainly, Pauling had no fear about fat in the diet, that's true.


Exactly. I've low been fat vegetarian for 30 years starting from age 10. No eggs, fish or additional fats. Culminated in a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta. And a walking disability.

  • Keep your intake of ordinary sugar (sucrose, raw sugar, brown sugar, honey) to 50 pounds per year, which is half the present U.S. average. Do not add sugar to tea or coffee. Do not eat high-sugar foods. Avoid sweet desserts. Do not drink soft drink.
  • Except for avoiding sugar, eat what you like - but not too much of any one food. Eggs and meat are good foods. Also you should eat some vegetables and fruits. Do not eat so much food as to become obese.


Following these recommendations by Linus Pauling, I eliminated any added sugar, and especially added daily eggs, weekly fish and occasional (organic) meat along with healthy fats back into my diet. Found only reduction of carbohydrates reversed my prediabetes. And thereby experienced remission. By following Paulings advise in complete opposition to MMs, and on which low-fat diet I actually developed my serious condition in the first place.

You might consider this a minor detail. But for me it makes the difference between suffering a walking-disabilty or not. If you too simplify Pauling's recommendations to vitamin C and lysine only, I simply cannot agree.

You only argue from theoretical considerations and blind believe. I'm more concerned about practical applications and experiencing the benefits.

I see no direct contradiction with the Pauling/Rath theory of heart disease


You see, for you its only about theory and believes. I clearly stated 'recommendations'.

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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sun May 16, 2021 12:33 pm

Exactly. I've been a low fat vegetarian for 30 years starting from age 10. No eggs, fish or additional fats. Culminated in a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta. And a walking disability.


And to complete the picture, did you supplement vitamin C?

Your case seems to be a strong argument that low-fat diets, alone, will not stop "chronic scurvy." I have no argument with that thesis. The new-found knowledge suggests that had you supplemented with vitamin C, and perhaps other nutrients you were missing by avoiding eggs and fish, you may have been much better, if not well.


Linus Pauling wrote: Keep your intake of ordinary sugar (sucrose, raw sugar, brown sugar, honey) to 50 pounds per year, which is half the present U.S. average. Do not add sugar to tea or coffee. Do not eat high-sugar foods. Avoid sweet desserts. Do not drink soft drink.
Except for avoiding sugar, eat what you like - but not too much of any one food. Eggs and meat are good foods. Also you should eat some vegetables and fruits. Do not eat so much food as to become obese.



I think bullet one is still excellent advise, when "sugar" taken to mean sucrose. (MM too advises against table sugars and high-fructose corn syrups, but differs by advising honey calling it an excellent source of "bioavailable" glucose.)

From reading HTLLAFB we know this cut sugar advice is based on Yudkin's work, and is mainly due to the findings of ill effects from taking high fructose.

For an interesting view on this, I recommend Johnson's excellent book THE FAT SWITCH.

What I am suggesting is trying to take any extra sugar - as glucose/dextrose, instead of sucrose (w/fructose).

I'm also pointing out that we absolutely need a certain amount of glucose, so people on Keto-like diets shouldn't consider glucose "wasted" calories.

Finally, while this is not said in the MM books, I INFER from what is said, insulin is REQUIRED for nutrients to first be processed by the liver, so they may be utilized by cells in the rest of the body.

I do not know, for example, whether taking vitamin C along with glucose/dextrose makes less vitamin C more effective, but I have been experimenting on myself, so far with good results, in that I feel great. Knock on wood.



Following these recommendations by Linus Pauling, I eliminated any added sugar, and especially added daily eggs, weekly fish and occasional (organic) meat along with healthy fats back into my diet.

Found only reduction of carbohydrates reversed my prediabetes. And thereby experienced remission. By following Paulings advise in complete opposition to MMs, and on which low-fat diet I actually developed my serious condition in the first place.


You blame the low-fat diet, and I would suggest that your low-vitamin C diet was more likely the root cause of your stenosis.

No one is arguing that your new choice of diet was in any way wrong. (Note: a deep dive into the reasons why MM suggests avoiding eggs has to do with fighting viruses. I do not doubt that many of the viruses originated in labs where they were cultured on eggs, making eggs prime "foods" for these viruses. MM has no quarrel with eggs and dairy as good foods, after you rid the body of viruses. )

I still don't see the 'complete opposition' with Pauling, unless you consider sugar the same as glucose? I don't. The suggestion to reduce fat has to do with the load eating fat puts on the liver, and most people have toxic livers. If your liver is healthy and you are toxin free, the books do not suggest that everyone should reduce fats to 15% of calories.


Found only reduction of carbohydrates reversed my prediabetes.


Yes, we learn from Dr. Atkins and others that carbohydrates, strangely, increase triglycerides; (fat in the blood). But these high triglycerides apper to be more of a function of the typical American Diet. Eating some fruits and vegetables as Pauling recommended, should not inordinately raise triglycerides.

If "prediabetes" was determine by blood sugar levels, then it is worth considering that elevated blood sugar levels are as much a function of glucose's ability to go from the blood INTO cells, as they are of glucose intake.

MM calls elevated blood sugar a diagnostic that indicates something is wrong with entering cells, and not the cause of the elevation. Either a lack of insulin, or something wrong with the cell membrane blocking glucose uptake. (Usually fat in the blood stream :-)

I think it is interesting that under this theory, "insulin resistance" is a mechanism whereby the body protects what little glucose their is in the blood from entering muscles, by creating insulin resistance, so the sparse glucose can make it to the brain/liver.
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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Fri May 28, 2021 5:20 am

ofonorow wrote:The new-found knowledge suggests that had you supplemented with vitamin C, and perhaps other nutrients you were missing by avoiding eggs and fish, you may have been much better, if not well.


How on earth is this decades old knowledge, that subclinical scurvy requires additional supplemental even high-dose vitamin C, is now 'new-found knowledge'?

ofonorow wrote:What I am suggesting is trying to take any extra sugar - as glucose/dextrose, instead of sucrose (w/fructose).


Instead what I'm suggesting is, after calculating the net-carb content of anything, testing 1 hr post-prandial blood-glucose. And then eliminating those foods which cause the largest blood-glucose spikes. Regardless if from sugar, fruits or starchy veggies.

ofonorow wrote:I'm also pointing out that we absolutely need a certain amount of glucose, so people on Keto-like diets shouldn't consider glucose "wasted" calories.


Not wasted, but due to its damage to endothelial cells actually the most dangerous calories!

ofonorow wrote:Finally, while this is not said in the MM books, I INFER from what is said, insulin is REQUIRED for nutrients to first be processed by the liver, so they may be utilized by cells in the rest of the body.


Who has lack of insulin? Maybe Typ1 diabetics. Which most are not. Most suffer not optimal, but still too high insulin.

ofonorow wrote:You blame the low-fat diet, and I would suggest that your low-vitamin C diet was more likely the root cause of your stenosis.


Of course I do blame the lack of vitamin C as the main reason. Which a low-fat diet didn't prevent (despite the abundance of glucose in the blood). But a high-fat diet along with vitamin C did move it into remission.

ofonorow wrote:I still don't see the 'complete opposition' with Pauling, unless you consider sugar the same as glucose? I don't. The suggestion to reduce fat has to do with the load eating fat puts on the liver, and most people have toxic livers. If your liver is healthy and you are toxin free, the books do not suggest that everyone should reduce fats to 15% of calories.


Actually had a fatty and fibrotic liver after decades of low-fat (again, not caused solely by it, but not at all prevented either). High fat healt that scar tissue and fatty liver!

Net carb content=sugar=blood glucose; as any cheap blood-glucose meter would let you know.

ofonorow wrote:Yes, we learn from Dr. Atkins and others that carbohydrates, strangely, increase triglycerides; (fat in the blood). But these high triglycerides apper to be more of a function of the typical American Diet. Eating some fruits and vegetables as Pauling recommended, should not inordinately raise triglycerides.


Should not? Holy Moses, you never checked your high triglycerides? Or drive them down again?

ofonorow wrote:I think it is interesting that under this theory, "insulin resistance" is a mechanism whereby the body protects what little glucose their is in the blood rom entering muscles, by creating insulin resistance, so the sparse glucose can make it to the brain/liver.


Don't guess, but test. Again you're only enamoured with a vile theory. I know the plenty blood-glucose and triglycerides when on too much carbs. Therefore I bring them down to healthy levels with low-carb/high fat. And wont suffer from an ambutated toe due to faulty theory, so easily tested wrong.


Of course, dose-response to carbs is completely individual. There are some up at very high age who don't seem to be harmed even by any amount of added sugar. But these are exceptions, up to half of the population with prediabetes, does point to what the majority suffers. Therefore the importance of testing, and employing effective counter-meassures when needed.

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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Mon May 31, 2021 10:26 am

We will have to agree to disagree.

My main point - that glucose isn't the sugar you refer to, i.e., "sugar" that is in most package foods and in the TAD. So when you blame "sugar" I agree, but suggest you are missing the boat by avoiding glucose.

For the record, here are my most recent lipid labs (May 5, 2021)

Code: Select all

Name: Owen R Fonorow |
Study Result

Component Results

Cholesterol Your Value
132 mg/dL Standard Range 0 - 199 mg/dL

Triglycerides Your Value 125 mg/dL Standard Range 30 - 150 mg/dL

HDL Your Value 34 mg/dL  Standard Range >=41 mg/dL Flag L

LIPID PANEL W/CALC LDL - Details
 
LDL Calculated Your Value 73 mg/dL Standard Range 0 - 99 mg/dL
 
Collected on 05/06/2021 2:42 PM (Blood)
Resulted on 05/06/2021 3:42 PM
Result Status: Final result


And I am not saying my diet is great, i.e. that I can or do avoid sucrose.. I'd love to be able to. I'm now taking my C with glucose.
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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#9  Post by pamojja » Mon May 31, 2021 10:52 am

ofonorow wrote:We will have to agree to disagree.


Fine with me.

You're probably aware that triglicerides close to 150 mg/dl indicate your LDLs are mostly small-dense and oxidized, but are taking the risk?

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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:37 am

pamojja wrote:
ofonorow wrote:We will have to agree to disagree.


Fine with me.

You're probably aware that triglicerides close to 150 mg/dl indicate your LDLs are mostly small-dense and oxidized, but are taking the risk?


It would be wonderful if we could trust today's science, but alas, I am not aware of any such thing. And even if "oxidized" cholesterol was an issue to worry about, I would trust that my extraordinarily high vitamin C (and E, and A, etc.) intake would neutralize it.

My problem for many years has been my low total cholesterol, which slowly dropped from the ideal 180 mg/dl, to my current 130 mg/dl. Cholesterol is a building block for many things, e.g., steroid hormones, and I'd be happier if I could raise it to at least 160 mg/dl.
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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#11  Post by pamojja » Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:19 pm

ofonorow wrote:It would be wonderful if we could trust today's science, but alas, I am not aware of any such thing. And even if "oxidized" cholesterol was an issue to worry about, I would trust that my extraordinarily high vitamin C (and E, and A, etc.) intake would neutralize it.

My problem for many years has been my low total cholesterol, which slowly dropped from the ideal 180 mg/dl, to my current 130 mg/dl. Cholesterol is a building block for many things, e.g., steroid hormones, and I'd be happier if I could raise it to at least 160 mg/dl.


Though it probably wont help you much - since you have so much distrust in science that your paralyzed to the point of never even experimenting its interventions to see if there something to it (or even follow up by lab-testing), by a too much of a theoretical belief-system - this is what lab-test analyser would have suggested for low total chlolesterol:

Range
mg/dL
Low < 154.99
Sub-Optimal 155 - 214.99
Optimal 215 - 309
High > 309.01

Optimal
Congratulations, your levels are optimal!
This means you have a reduced risk of:
Heart disease [R]
Mortality from all causes [R, R, R, R, R]
While somewhat elevated cholesterol has been traditionally associated with the risk of heart disease, studies show that as you get older, having a somewhat higher cholesterol actually decreases your risk of all-cause mortality [R, R, R, R, R].

Low
Your cholesterol levels are below the normal range!
Low cholesterol levels are associated with:
• Severe depression [R]
• Anxiety [R]
• Suicidal thoughts and attempts [R]
Low cholesterol levels increase the risk of mortality from stroke, heart disease, and cancer [R].
The most common causes of low cholesterol include:
• Low-cholesterol diets, high polyunsaturated fat diets, and very low fat diets [R]
• Low-protein diets [R]
• Iron deficiency [R]
• Hyperthyroidism [R]
• Statin use [R, R]
Other less common causes include:
• Liver diseases [R]
• Celiac disease [R]
• Hepatitis C [R]
• Abetalipoproteinemia (a genetic diseases mostly found in Jewish populations) [R]
• Hypobetalipoproteinemia (a genetic disease that causes low LDL and total cholesterol levels) [R]
• Smith-Lemli-Opitz Syndrome (SLOS) [R]
• Leukemias (cancer of blood-forming tissues and cells) [R]
• Parasitic infection including E. histolyticaa and G. lamblia [R]
Low cholesterol levels do not cause symptoms directly, and individuals will only show symptoms related to the cause of low cholesterol levels, such as iron deficiency and hyperthyroidism.
Address any underlying health issues!
Fasting can help increase total cholesterol levels [R].
Increase your consumption of foods high in cholesterol and saturated fats such as eggs, red meats, and butter [R, R].
Make sure you are consuming enough protein to sustain your activity levels [R].
If your iron is low, consume more iron-rich foods, including beef, oysters, lentils, and spinach [R, R].
Supplements that can help:
• Iron. Iron supplements should be taken with caution and only if iron deficient [R]
• Zinc [R]


Pasting here for some reason doesn't adds the urls to the references. If you're interested in anyone in particular, let me know.

ofonorow wrote:And even if "oxidized" cholesterol was an issue to worry about, I would trust that my extraordinarily high vitamin C (and E, and A, etc.) intake would neutralize it.


Elsewhere you mentioned of reducing your daily vitamin C intake down to 4 g/d because of your theories and the whispering of a ghost by Anthony Williams. 4 g/d isn't extraordinary high. And according to my monitoring of vitamin C intake and ox(LDL) levels, far from enough for neutralizing.

Test, don't guess.

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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:36 am

Science is a tool, and I don't distrust science. I distrust today's pharmaceutical marketing programs disguised or mislabelled as 'science." I am wary when real scientists are prevented from speaking or publishing based on politics.

By the way, your personal experiments, while laudable, are not science.

As far as Anthony William, you are heavily influenced by where the information comes from. I am more interested in the truth and falsity of the information.
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Re: High Lp(a)

Post Number:#13  Post by pamojja » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:00 am

ofonorow wrote:Science is a tool, and I don't distrust science. I distrust today's pharmaceutical marketing programs disguised or mislabelled as 'science." I am wary when real scientists are prevented from speaking or publishing based on politics.


Actually true. As soon as you find a as much meager study supporting your views, you always post on a dedicated thread. In fact, most studies on this forum are actually posted by you. However, I offered you to give you the references to the studies for the claims in above thread, and you're obviously not interested.

ofonorow wrote:By the way, your personal experiments, while laudable, are not science.


On account of science suggesting either way I do experiment. And that way found health again. - Where did I say that's science?, or it would have to be? - its only making good use of available science. It needs to work for an individual to be of use.

ofonorow wrote:As far as Anthony William, you are heavily influenced by where the information comes from. I am more interested in the truth and falsity of the information.


Anthony William promotes a believe system. If experimented with it does not work, as for all who tryed it on this forum, it has no use for real-life, but becomes a blindly followed religion.


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