please advise.. 3 heart attacks & stenosis

[sab]

Hello

You must read T. Colin Campbell's "The China Study". Please. I cannot emphasise enough how much this book could help you.

Best wishes,
sab

[ofonorow]

ofonorow, I forgot to mention to you that those blood test levels were done on my husband while he is on PT and on 80mg of lipator a day.

I noticed that. Quite a coincidence.

But since the lysine binding sites (and proline binding sites) are on Lp(a) - but not ordinary LDL - LDL has no relation to the risk of CVD, except that Lp(a) is a form of LDL, and was included in the total LDL numbers in earlier work.

Doctors may have heard about the lysine binding sites - but incorrectly believe they exist on ordinary cholesterol. I doubt you have any chance of reeducating your doctor about this.

The ratio (in my opinion) is meaningless.

As far as the book recommendation out of the blue in the previous post, why? What is it about?

[sab]

Hi Owen,

The book idea would seem out of the blue, I was planning to write a post about it in the non-C specific section.

However, when I checked the new posts and saw something about heart disease, I knew I couldn't live with myself if I didn't mention something straight away, much in the same way that I now mention vitamin C megadosing to all sorts of people suffering various ailments.

It is the most well researched, well written, myth-exploding with data, gripping and inspiring book on nutrition that I have ever read. It refers mostly to avoidance of chronic disease, however it also shows that the approach recommended in the book has been successfully used to "arrest and reverse" heart disease, for instance by reformed heart surgeon Caldwell Esselstyn.

Just looked it up on amazon... it has 1,106 5 star reviews.

sab

[jpoww]

Sab, I looked up the book and it seems it talks about eating animal fat and how bad it is for you. Its says animal fat causes heart disease. I dont believe that. We omnivores. we evolved eating meat and animal fat. Saturated fat is a full chain molecule, its safe, unlike polysaturated fats. Dr. Sinatra says sugar is the enemy of heart disease not cholesterol or anything that turns to sugar.

[jpoww]

Owen, Lp(a) is part of the LDL correct? so on PT, the lp(a) should be going down. So what causes the rest of the particles in the LDL to go up? could it be the fact that we eat alot of eggs? and what about the HDL? do you think his low HDL reading has any impact on heart disease? you know the ratio of LDL vs HDL? These doctors are obessed with wanting a high HDL reading too.

my doctor has heard of linus pauling and he did say he was going to look into the lysine and how it binds to the lp(a) but until then he is not decrease his lipator. We go back to him at the end of january I will try again. I told him we eat alot of eggs and maybe thats why his LDL is high but I'm getting alot of contridicting statements between what I have learned on this website from you and PT vs what Dr. Sinatra has been saying.
Sinatra says cholesteral is not the cause of heart disease yet he says any male with a history of heart attacks and an LDL over 130 should be on a statin

[sab]

hi jpoww

just to mention, I think perhaps you should read the book, not just look it up, and possibly experiment with the diet or treat hundreds of heart patients with it, before dismissing it out of hand. I specifically refrained from explaining exactly what the book is about as I think the author does the best job of that and I wouldn't want to prejudice such potentially vital information by summarising it myself. As a matter of fact you are quite wrong to say that it is about animal fats being bad for you.

It is quite possible that different people thrive on different diets. This man is clearly not thriving, perhaps you should not try to quash any opportunity for him to make simple, cheap, life-saving changes?

There are plenty of people offering critiques of Campbell's work, any number of which are more compelling than your 2-liner. If you're going to dismiss such an impressive oeuvre as Campbell's, perhaps you should put a little more effort into it.

Anyway, like I said, I am considering writing a post on this elsewhere. I don't think this thread is suitable for this kind of bickering. I was merely offering a suggestion. There was no need to shoot it down.

Regards,
Sab

[ofonorow]

Catching up - the book description intrigued me and I will put the book on my reading list... Which is getting longer by the day

hi jpoww

just to mention, I think perhaps you should read the book, not just look it up...

It is quite possible that different people thrive on different diets. This man is clearly not thriving, perhaps you should not try to quash any opportunity for him to make simple, cheap, life-saving changes?

This idea that we all require different kinds of food for best health was a critical part of the Kelley cancer program - metabolic diets, depending apparently in large part on our ancestry, (i.e., the kind of food available in winter, etc.) The way this was discovered by Dr. William Kelly is brilliantly described in this Cancer video by Nick Gonzalez.
Enzymes and Cancer http://www.amazon.com/Enzymes-Cancer-Nicholas-J-Gonzalez/dp/B001OI36GW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356108253&sr=8-1&keywords=Gonzalez+enzyme+dvd

Anyway, like I said, I am considering writing a post on this elsewhere. I don't think this thread is suitable for this kind of bickering. I was merely offering a suggestion. There was no need to shoot it down.

Why not start a topic about the book in "Rants and Misc"?

[ofonorow]

Owen, Lp(a) is part of the LDL correct? so on PT, the lp(a) should be going down.

Not necessarily. Without vitamin C, lp(a) (really apo(a)) went UP in the laboratory experiments with guinea pigs. The body responds to low vitamin C by producing more apo(a). (Lp(a) is LDL with apo(a)). I don't know of any experiments that show a decline in elevated Lp(a) after increasing vitamin C.

However, we have a great deal of anecdotal "evidence", such as the New York medical school professor (story in my book) with elevated Lp(a). He measured his own Lp(a) - went to zero only after adding proline to his vitamin C and lysine. We also have Warren Levin, MD's observations and letter to JAMA reporting a decline in Lp(a) in his patients taking high vitamin C, lysine (and he did prescribe proline).

So what causes the rest of the particles in the LDL to go up? could it be the fact that we eat alot of eggs? and what about the HDL? do you think his low HDL reading has any impact on heart disease? you know the ratio of LDL vs HDL? These doctors are obessed with wanting a high HDL reading too.

These cholesterol ratios are all voodoo to me. (Spent some time a long time ago trying to study the papers on this. They made no sense to me, and I leave it to johnwen to try and explain.) My quick and dirty explanation is that statin drugs have been found to affect the ratio in a certain way, so these ratios are merely another means for marketing statins.)

my doctor has heard of linus pauling and he did say he was going to look into the lysine and how it binds to the lp(a) but until then he is not decrease his lipator. We go back to him at the end of january I will try again. I told him we eat alot of eggs and maybe thats why his LDL is high but I'm getting alot of contridicting statements between what I have learned on this website from you and PT vs what Dr. Sinatra has been saying.

Sinatra says cholesterol is not the cause of heart disease yet he says any male with a history of heart attacks and an LDL over 130 should be on a statin

That is a contradictory statement by Sinatra, and you'll have to ask him! (He is a medically trained doctor, after all, and he is also a cardiologist! I look to him regarding his expertise on Coenzyme Q10. Period.) Any doctor that doesn't recommend vitamin C and lysine for heart disease is ignorant, in my opinion. Forgivably so, because there are no studies!!!)

Don't worry about eggs! If you don't eat any cholesterol, there is a feedback system, and your liver will produce the cholesterol you need when it is lacking in the diet (save for those unfortunate souls taking cholesterol-lowering drugs.)

As far as binding, the do try to make this obscure and hard to find - that only Lp(a) has the lysine binding sites! There are very clear papers from a team at the University of Chicago - who discovered the proline binding site on Lp(a).

There is also the Bisegal work that keyed Rath, who keyed Pauling - that only Lp(a) was on the aortas of people who died of heart attacks. Not ordinary LDL.

But before trying to influence your doctor, lets see what he can find! I am curious.

[jpoww]

so wait..your saying even though my husband is on vit. c, lysine and proline that his lp(a) wont go down? i'm going to get the doctor to check his lp(a) in feb. to see if it went down.

what do you think about Apo B? my husbands levels were slightly elevated
what do you think about any readings of HDL2B ? Do you think any of these readings are important in his risk factors to having another blockage?

[ofonorow]

so wait..your saying even though my husband is on vit. c, lysine and proline that his lp(a) wont go down? i'm going to get the doctor to check his lp(a) in feb. to see if it went down.

No, it probably will decrease, but it may require 6 to 18 months. I am only saying there are no laboratory experiments (known by me) that show apo(a) drops in guinea pigs after vitamin C is raised. Only that apo(a) increases after vitamin C is decreased. (Willis, Pauling/Rath)

what do you think about Apo B? my husbands levels were slightly elevated
what do you think about any readings of HDL2B ? Do you think any of these readings are important in his risk factors to having another blockage?

As I have stated ad absurdium at this forum, the ONLY cholesterol number I find interesting is the total cholesterol, which magically normalizes to 180 mg/dl - when vitamin C intake is optimal. You can use the total number as a gauge of your personal vitamin C requirement, and there is as much science behind this as you will be able to find. (And Dr. Ginter is still alive!)

The other numbers, ratios, etc. are "gobbly gook" to me.

Maybe johnwen has an opinion.

Of course Lp(a). The Lp(a) number (when accurate) is an indicator of risk of CVD/Heart attack, but the risk can be minimized by taking Lp(a) binding inhibitors, vitamin C, proline and lysine. (See Pauling/Rath patents for more details. Links to these patents on home page of PaulingTherapy.com ) I wish there was direct scientific evidence to back up what I am saying about binding inhibitors. Medicine so far has not studied it. So they cannot argue that we are wrong. They don't know.

[jpoww]

Just an update. My husband is now up to 22grams of powdered vitamin C which is breaks up throughout the day, taking some every hour. He mixes his lysine, proline and powdered vitamins/minerals all together and sips on this all day long.
He has since added
coq10-300mg a day
4 forms of L carnatine
glutamine
B1
Folic Acid
Selenium
intrinstic B
magnesium
Digestive enzymes
Bile salts, Probotics, Pancreatin, Betaine HCL, Lecithin, Fish Oil
He is still on Lipator, Effient, rampril, and ecotrin (asprin)
I just heard Dr.Levy on the Ben Fuchs radio show "the bright side" and he was talking about cholesteral and I was a little confused.
when doctors measure cholesteral they arent measuring the actual cholesteral right?
cholesteral and blood dont mix. they are actually measuring the Lipoprotein in the blood. so why is anyone including Dr. Levy even putting any emphassis on cholesteral at all? What benefit is it to even know what the HDL, LDL or even triglycerides levels are?
how does the cholesteral even begin to repair arterial damage when its incased in the lipoprotein bubble?

[VanCanada]

Just an update...
When doctors measure cholesteral they arent measuring the actual cholesteral right?
...So why is anyone including Dr. Levy even putting any emphassis on cholesteral at all?
What benefit is it to even know what the HDL, LDL or even triglycerides levels are?
How does the cholesteral even begin to repair arterial damage when its incased in the lipoprotein bubble?

jpoww,

......These three interview podcasts with lipid expert Chris Masterjohn are terrific in my opinion. They will hopefully answer your questions above and much more. (And be sure to check the Dr. Dayspring interviews I refer to in my other posts.) Good luck.

http://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-11
http://chriskresser.com/episode-16-chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-heart-disease-part-2
http://chriskresser.com/chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-and-heart-disease-part-3

[jpoww]

I read the first link and I understood everything up til he started to talk about the LDL receptors and how you can increase them. And how did the bile and liver and thyroid come into the mix?

[Johnwen]

I posted this on a another topic but here the subject of cholestrol comes up again so I'll just post this file from Pauling/Rath, here again. Once you read it you'll understand what does what and maybe have a clearer veiw of what is important and not what the pharma companies has injected into the medical industry! Heres a question to ponder! If cholestrol is such a bad actor then why are the arteries of a healthy person lined with cholesterol?

http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1 ... 1-p005.pdf

Futher reading on how the edocrine system plays in this.

http://www.usdoctor.com/Book2/Chapter012.html

Gallbladder it's functions in this also.

http://www.drturumin.com/en/ToDownload/ ... _05_en.pdf

Hope this helps

[tjohnson_nb]

......These three interview podcasts with lipid expert Chris Masterjohn are terrific in my opinion. They will hopefully answer your questions above and much more. (And be sure to check the Dr. Dayspring interviews I refer to in my other posts.) Good luck.

[/color]http://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-11
http://chriskresser.com/episode-16-chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-heart-disease-part-2
http://chriskresser.com/chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-and-heart-disease-part-3

Listened to 2 of these podcasts - very interesting. They don't speak much about Vit C and it's possible involvement in CVD. He spoke quite a bit about how lipoparticles oxidize and how antioxidents can help - like Vit C but never mentioned the idea that low Vit C could be signalling for Lp(a). It would be interesting to hear his views.