Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#31  Post by ofonorow » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:16 am

First of all johnwen,
The answer is that there is a particular amino acid in a protein in the wall of the artery - lysine -


johnwen - I still don't see the problem or error. The "protein" Pauling is referring to is collagen. The important knowledge (according to his video lecture) was that only Lp(a) was found in post mortem aortas (not ordinary LDL). This finding brought to his attention by Matthias Rath made him wonder why only Lp(a). Well, there are the lysine binding sites on Lp(a). When the lesion in the arterial wall occurs, because of a weakness or lack of collagen, parts of the "broken" collagen protein are exposed at the site of lesion - and Lp(a) sticks to the lysine strands (broken?) that are exposed.

Your analysis sounds similar to Dr. Levy's in STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER, which does not focus on Lp(a), but does support the finding that all risk factors are caused by scurvy - focal or localized scurvy at the point of the lesion.

Davids1 - Pauling said in a video lecture on Cancer that the reason he took 18 grams was because an animal of his body weight would have produced 9 grams daily, and his experiments showed that about 50% of the vitamin C taken by mouth breaks down and is not bioavailable. It was common knowledge at the Pauling institute that Dr. Cathcart's daily intake was 60 grams. (Perhaps he was fighting something?) In one of those strange coincidences, one of our customers returned our vitamin C powder (ascorbic acid) saying that when she took a 1/4 teaspoon - she was on the pot all day long! There are a few people out there who cannot reach even the 4000 mg daily that Cathcart though almost all people could reach (in divided doses).

And Davids1 - I thought it was interesting that your bowel tolerance "went up" when taking vitamin C with proteins. When a bowel tolerance increases, less makes it to the rectum, meaning more is absorbed into the blood. This observation matches what Sherry Lewin wrote in the book VITAMIN C: ITS BIOLOGY AND MEDICAL POTENTIAL (1976?). That proteins (amino acids) join with vitamin C in the gut, "chelating" the ascorbate ion, allowing more of it to be absorbed (and that conversely, carbohydrates taken with vitamin C tend to break it down and make less bioavailable.) This may be one reason the vitamin C and lysine (amino acid) powders are so effective!

Finally, people who have been skeptical about the idea that mercury, primarily from vaccines, causes brain damage (autism), have pointed out the low levels of mercury in autistic's hair. Other experts say that is the point! These autistics do not excrete mercury, and losing it in the hair is one form of excretion.
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#32  Post by davids1 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:20 am

Thanks, Owen, for the response and explanation(s).
Pauling said in a video lecture on Cancer that the reason he took 18 grams was because an animal of his body weight would have produced 9 grams daily...
The animals [obviously] have a tremendous advantage over us in being able to produce their own ascorbic acid ["24/7"]. But I have always felt we humans do have [just] one advantage over them [as regards ascorbate ingestion]: if they get a disease and/or a poison in their system that requires more ascorbic acid than they can produce, i.e. fast enough, they die. We, on the other hand, have the option of ingesting [or injecting], potentially unlimited amounts of this potent antioxidant. And I have always assumed that our bodies are under more stress, in general, than theirs, e.g. diet and other lifestyle/societal factors.
Dr. Cathcart's daily intake was 60 grams. (Perhaps he was fighting something?)
Aren't we all "fighting something" all of the time [albeit, typically] unknown to us [until it is "too late," i.e. we contract an illness/disease]?
In one of those strange coincidences, one of our customers returned our vitamin C powder (ascorbic acid) saying that when she took a 1/4 teaspoon - she was on the pot all day long! There are a few people out there who cannot reach even the 4000 mg daily that Cathcart though almost all people could reach (in divided doses).
It would be very interesting to me to know what kind of general health those people are experiencing!
...autistics do not excrete mercury, and losing it in the hair is one form of excretion.
This surprises me for the reason that it is common in crime scene forensics to do a hair analysis to see if the person has been poisoned. If this only applied to a certain subset of the population, and at varying rates [at that], one would think this would be a very unreliable test!

Just my view and "two cents worth."

Best,

David
Last edited by davids1 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#33  Post by ofonorow » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:46 am

For that small subset of the population that cannot tolerate 200 mgs of vitamin C, health isn't an issue. My father rarely got sick. Never had a cold. It has to do with absorption in the intestinal tract, or lack there of.

As Dr. Shades (quicksilver.com) an environmental scientist explained, the ability to excrete toxins also follows a bell curve. Some easily expel mercury, and about 90% can expel it, but there are about 10-15% who have extreme difficulty ridding their tissues of mercury. So the test could/would be valid for 9 out of 10 times. It also appears that you are on the low excretion edge of the bell curve, and that the vitamin C (per Dr. Russell Jaffee) is helping you control it. We have also discussed the idea of ascorbate neutralizing oxidized mercury, making it inert
.
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#34  Post by davids1 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:44 am

Fascinating stuff.
My father rarely got sick. Never had a cold.
I assume you would agree with me [when I say] your Father actually had a progressively worsening illness/"sickness." I will agree with you that many people do not manifest [an illness] until it is something we would normally call "serious." From my view, we are all unique, in that we all manifest our [physical] "weaknesses" in different ways. (Different/individual Karma/genetic profiles?)
As Dr. Shades (quicksilver.com) an environmental scientist explained, the ability to excrete toxins also follows a bell curve. Some easily expel mercury, and about 90% can expel it, but there are about 10-15% who have extreme difficulty ridding their tissues of mercury. So the test could/would be valid for 9 out of 10 times. It also appears that you are on the low excretion edge of the bell curve, and that the vitamin C (per Dr. Russell Jaffee) is helping you control it.
Would this not underscore the need to always be ingesting a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbate, e.g. the high excreters would [probably] need less [and therefore have a lower Bowel Tolerance], and the low excreters would [probably] need more [and therefore have a higher Bowel Tolerance]? Does it not always come back to ingesting a Bowel Tolerance dosage of ascorbate at all times, thereby allowing the body to [always] "decide/choose" how much it "wants"/needs [at any particular moment]?

Just my viewpoint,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#35  Post by angiew » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:29 am

Hi Johnwen,


you wrote..."Wouldn’t supplementing with L-Lysine be more detrimental then beneficial since taking in more lysine would cause more attachments to these said proteins within the arterial system which would cause more blockages, which would make it a causative agent rather then a correcting agent??"

So what's your opinion on this, eg.. should one supplement with lysine or not to reduce plaque?

Additionally, should one increase proline supplementation to increase lp(a) binding and removal?

Here's a quote fron Dr. Lam:

"...proline has a high affinity for Lp(a) and therefore able to dissolve plaque. It is said to be even stronger than lysine in this action. It not only prevents further build-up of artherosclerotic deposits, it also helps to release already deposited fat globules from the blood vessel walls into the blood stream. "


http://www.drlam.com/opinion/vitamin_C_ ... isease.asp

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#36  Post by ofonorow » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:53 am

angiew, I think johnwen was posing a question - that I still don't completely understand - questioning Linus Pauling's comment on video.

Taking high dosage lysine with vitamin C has been miraculous for heart patients.

Davids1 - for most people, taking "bowel tolerance" dosages of vitamin C would increase their state of health. My only point is that for some people - with extremely small tolerances - they obviously could be healthier if they could eat more. Today, for these people digestive issues, they can take a liposomal form of vitamin C, putting much more in their blood.
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#37  Post by davids1 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:25 am

Hi Owen,

I am [obviously] all for people getting more antioxidants, e.g. ascorbate, "in[to] their blood." If they ingest it in a liposomal form, they'll have to just "guess" as to how much they should be ingesting [at any particular moment], but I agree that there are some reasonably good models around [to assist them].

However, if they are really after the best health possible [for themselves], I still believe they should persevere with trying to raise their Bowel Tolerance of/for ascorbic acid [and that "perseverance," from my view, is essentially a lifelong pursuit].

Just my "two cents worth,"

David
Last edited by davids1 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#38  Post by randian » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:30 pm

ofonorow wrote:Today, for these people digestive issues, they can take a liposomal form of vitamin C, putting much more in their blood.

Is there any evidence pro or con for the proposition that lypo C bypasses the high glucose "wall"? If it does it would be great for diabetics.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#39  Post by Johnwen » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:16 pm

Owen wrote: johnwen - I still don't see the problem or error. The "protein" Pauling is referring to is collagen. The important knowledge (according to his video lecture) was that only Lp(a) was found in post mortem aortas (not ordinary LDL). This finding brought to his attention by Matthias Rath made him wonder why only Lp(a). Well, there are the lysine binding sites on Lp(a). When the lesion in the arterial wall occurs, because of a weakness or lack of collagen, parts of the "broken" collagen protein are exposed at the site of lesion - and Lp(a) sticks to the lysine strands (broken?) that are exposed.


Owen wrote: (not ordinary LDL).

Note I said:
Johnwen wrote: a particular LDL derivative

Which is what LP(a) is!

Owen wrote: Your analysis sounds similar to Dr. Levy's in STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER, which does not focus on Lp(a), but does support the finding that all risk factors are caused by scurvy - focal or localized scurvy at the point of the lesion.

Not really! It does focus on LP(a) as the reactor to the signal but where does the signal originate from that attracts it to the problem. We know it attaches very well to lysine in the blood which keeps it from sticking to the signal agent in the collagen but what else is there that attracts It? I present this below!

The intima of the artery is lined with endotheil cells between the endotheil cells are collagen they are the structures that allow the endotheil cells to stretch out or collapse due to the action of the muscle that surrounds the artery or the internal pressure placed against them. The collagen is glued to the endotheil cells by a substance called “Platelet Endotheil Cellular Adhesion Molecules.” This glue substance has many different molecular components essential to their ability to do their job.
In scurvy the lack of nutrients cause the structure of the collagen to come apart and deteriorate. This can be compared to piece of old broken down elastic band that lost it’s stretch. If you take a magnifier and look at the elastic you’ll see that there is little pieces of the rubber sticking out of the material that broke and separated causing the elastic to fail.
These little pieces of rubber are the equivalent to what Pauling says happens to the collagen structure where the structural components are sticking out of the weakened structure attracting the LDL derivative LP(a).
This theory has not been totally accepted by the scientific community as noted many times on this forum with reasons varying from conspiracy to ignorance.
However there is the possibility that the other components in this matrix could fail. These other components do not have the lysine based component that collagen has. Yet when they fail they need the same patching cascade of events as collagen does. What then causes this same cascade of events to trigger without this lysine component?
Endotheil cell advanced Apoptosis is one example. It happens in diabetes quite often and is the reason I chose the following study to show why it’s imperative to keep sugar levels in check!
It also pretty much explains a good deal about the other components of intima matrix.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903979/
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#40  Post by nineboy » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:22 pm

Wow quite a discussion you have going. I did peek into Dr. Lams site and liked the Three Musketeers heading. Yes one for all and all for one. I have not been in the site for such a long time. So just reporting in. I have continued taking up to 9 grams of vit.c 6 grams of lysene and 1.5 grams or 2 of proline. Plus 400iu vit. e and 100mg Co.Q10. plus multi vit. and 1000mg fish oil capsule. I can only say that these last few months I have been keeping well and no sign of my angina. I have been on a few trips this year and can report no problems with my heart. I only buy my vitamins at a nearby vit store and take my vit. c with a little cranberry juice with a little heated water. I am as usual back at the gym and walk roughly 4 to 5 thousand steps a day. Not using nitro patches or spray at all. I am not in dancing at this moment as classes are down for the summer. As always pretty active and occasionally have to slow myself down. I will keep on doing what I'm doing and am always thankful for this sites help. Regards

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#41  Post by ofonorow » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:11 am

randian - if true liposomal C doesn't make it through membranes (into the mitochondria even) how could 5 grams by mouth be clinically equivalent to 25 to 50 g IV?

Also I am no longer convinced that the glucose barrier exists, except for DHA ("oxidized" ascorbate) which may be important fighting infections.

davids1 - appreciate your contributions and I think we are mostly in violent agreement. Certainly bowel tolerance is a strong indication that tissues are consuming large amounts of ascorbate - when it works. There are cases where it doesn't - most of the vitamin c ingested makes it to the rectum, not the blood, anything over a tiny amount, that's all. Have you seen the Riordan video (embedded on our cancer page http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/vitcancer.shtml ) where he describes an insect bite, giving himself 25 g of IV/C and measuring the ascorbate content of his blood after the IV? There was no measurable vitamin C in his blood after the IV. It required 4 days of IVs before he could measure vitamin C in his blood. (Now his clinic routinely measures vitamin C after an IV, and if it cannot be measured, they continue with the IV.) This is the same phenomenon as bowel tolerance - a strong indication that tissues under stress will absorb enormous amounts of ascorbate.

johnwen - still trying to grasp your point - as if there can be conditions where atherosclerosis develops without lysine being present. First, your description of the intima sounded like what I have heard referred to as elastin (rather than collagen). Not a big deal.

Lp(a) also has proline binding sites.

Collagen (apparently) is a triple helix made up of lysine and proline. So when it degenerates, how could there not be lysine (or proline) for Lp(a) to stick to?

So the finding that keyed Pauling (German Biesegal (Rath) was that Lp(a) forms plaques - not ordinary LDL.

Now this discussion has made me wonder about one thing. Why don't ordinary or normal lysine concentrations in the blood interact with any Lp(a) in the blood? You would think that high Lp(a) would literally soak up any lysine in the blood, causing lysine deficiency problems all by itself? Especially if the attraction is strong enough to find lesions on arterial walls close to the heart! (Answering my own question, obviously the concentration of lysine in the blood has to be a certain level before lysine interacts with Lp(a) in a significant way.) I guess we are lucky that the kidney does not quickly eliminate these concentrations.)
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#42  Post by stcrim » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:31 pm

New and glad to be here!!! Early in this discussion there was talk or plaque regression. Just a simple question - has anyone here had a documented calcium score reduction???

Steve

Note: My Ca score is 1401 (no symptoms). I have been taking 12,000mg or Vitamin C combined with 1500mg or potassium derived from potassium bicarb (more on this later) and 2,000mg of L-Lysine for about a month. I have spent the past 3 years following Dr. William Davis on Track Your Plaque (excellent program but does not include Vitamin C) - following a low carb high fat diet, normalized Vitamin D, Vitamin K2 and a handful of other nutrients to make up the kitchen sink.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#43  Post by ofonorow » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:59 am

Vitamin K is the key for reducing calcium scores and arterial stiffness. Long story, been told often, short of it is that the CEO of Tower laboratories - on his own Vitamin C/lysine/Proline product for years - very high calcium and blood pressure. Added vitamin K and one year later, all calcium readings/stiffness readings normal. Ton of literature to back this up.
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#44  Post by randian » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:18 pm

I'm hoping the 6mg of K2 I take daily will result in measurable reductions in calcium score (30). Only been 3 months since the test though, so probably too soon to test again. I have noticed my BP levels have improved when tested at doctor's offices via upper-arm cuff.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#45  Post by stcrim » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:53 pm

That single post could dash all my hopes. I used large amounts of k2 from mk-7 and mk-4 as well as K-1 from a complex only to have my calcium score grow by 20 per year for three years.
To learn that the CEO of Tower laboratories got no benefit from Vitamin C is very disheartening. I was really counting on Vitamin C to tip the scales in the right direction.
Steve


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