Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

[Dolev]

Johnwen,

"V-C replaces sugar in the cells and is used in the production of energy from the individual cells without the damaging effects of sugar."

That's completely new to me. Do you mean that vitamin C actually goes into the Krebs cycle? Do you have a source for that?

[Johnwen]

Short on time this week but here's one to wet your whistle.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james52.htm

I thought there would be more intrest in CD31 and CD104 guess not?

[angiew]

Hi Davids1,

"...basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 50 to 80 grams, in 6 to 12 divided doses."

Wow...that's amazing to me. How has your health been since then?

What about blood work and medical exams, any problems?

Any indicators of pro-oxidant effect of such high dosage?

[ofonorow]

Hi Davids1,

Any indicators of pro-oxidant effect of such high dosage?

Exactly the opposite! If the Cathcart Titrating to Bowel Tolerance paper (now at http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm) doesn't help make that clear, then search for Robert Catchart Vitamin C on youtube - here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdVs6cx6oY. Cathcart's lecture on the Rationale for high dosage ascorbate.

Another good source that should help clear up ANY concern that high dose vitamin C acts like a pro-oxidant - should be dispelled by Dr. Thomas Levy's landmark book PRIMAL PANACEA. Levy reduced the concept to as simple as it gets. Genius.

High vitamin C can induce so-called "pro oxidant" effects, but in a way the body understands and expects - such as increasing Hydrogen Peroxide levels in certain immune cells, etc. On the whole, the more vitamin C that is consumed, the less "oxidative" stress there is in the body (Note: this term lately is used to refer to GSH levels in cells.)

[Johnwen]

[randian]

[Johnwen]

Doesn't the Pauling theory imply that Lp(a) is attaching itself to free lysine, not lysine bound up in arterial walls?

That isn't what Owen said that Pauling said!

The answer is that there is a particular amino acid in a protein in the wall of the artery - lysine -

Randian go back and read Owens post on page one and then try to answer the rest of the questions. It gets interesting???

[Johnwen]

[davids1]

Hi Angiew,

How has your health been since then?

IMO, you ask an intelligent question.

Next month I will turn 64 years old. I virtually never get sick, e.g. maybe one light headache every other year, and maybe a sinus drainage, i.e. "cold?" once every other year or three (or four?) [certainly nothing that even comes close to sending me to bed]. I take no drugs whatsoever, although I have taken an aspirin a number [15-20?] of times in my life [if the headache bothered me enough]. I quit exercising years ago. My diet, relative to the population as a whole, is good, but FAR from perfect. I am, IMO, probably at least 20 pounds overweight [if not 30]. I am a lacto-vegetarian, for what that might be worth [eating a relatively small amount of cheese], although I do consume, occasionally, small amounts of meat on a pizza.

What about blood work and medical exams, any problems?

I have not been to a doctor since 1971 [when I was in college and it was free (when I burnt myself with some hot popcorn oil)], so I would not know anything about my "blood work." Up until I started with Bowel Tolerance dosing of ascorbic acid, although my health was [relatively] quite good [I exercised fairly extensively], I still did get an [approximately] annual "cold" or so [certainly more extensive, i.e. somewhat more severe and definitely longer lasting, than anything that I have had in the past 19 years].

That [all] being said, my health/physical condition is definitely not perfect! I continue to show the typical signs of aging, e.g. gradual loss of strength, graying of the hair, wrinkling, etc., etc. I no longer have "20/20" vision, although I do not [yet] require glasses [other than occasionally to read particularly fine print, or see detail from a long distance]. I'm pretty sure my hearing has gone down some. I very occasionally get a [mysteriously] slight shaking in my right forearm, i.e. hand [possibly the beginning of "Parkinson's," which my 84 year old Mother has had a mild case of for 20 years]. I would say the most obvious health issue I have had to deal with is my teeth. I have a mouth full of silver/mercury amalgam fillings [and have had them since I was young]. Because of the slight occasional forearm shaking [that began around 5(?) years ago], I had a hair analysis done at that time, and it came back with an unmeasurably low amount of mercury. (They listed 4 possible categories: high, medium, low, and unmeasurable, and I was certainly glad about being in the latter category [given all of the mercury in my mouth]!) As an aside, I assume that the Bowel Tolerance doses of ascorbic acid I ingest daily probably chelated [and continues to chelate] out any mercury getting into my system from the fillings [but I'll probably never know that for sure].

Any indicators of pro-oxidant effect of such high dosage?

This question surprises me, Angiew. Each molecule of ascorbic acid has two "extra" electrons. These electrons are, by definition, reducing, i.e. anti-oxidixing. Like Owen wrote, if the body needs the ascorbate to perform "oxidant" type activities, it simply takes and/or makes what it wants, e.g. dehydroascorbate as a virucidal, etc., etc.

Thanks for your questions, Angiew.

Best of health to you,

David

[ofonorow]

This topic has turned mind bending... Thanks all.

David, Pauling does mention Cathcart and his bowel tolerance notion/paper in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER... You said "never".

David, as you were mentioning Parkinsons - I immediately thought mercury/amalgam fillings (per my Holistic Dentist's theory that ALL of these diseases are caused by heavy metal toxicity, primarily mercury.)

What does having a lot of mercury in your mouth but none in your hair tell you!?!! That you are a low mercury excretor (same problem with autistics). You tend to retain mercury, so your high dosages of ascorbate have a purpose!

Johnwen, I think I missed your point about lysine? Maybe simpler for my simple mind? The strands of lysine that are exposed after injury to an artery (he calls them lysyl residues) are what attracts the Lysine Binding Sites on the Lp(a). Normally, the collagen (made up of lysine and proline) is inside the artery in a triple helix. It is only exposed to the blood when the artery cracks.

So what do you think I said that Pauling said that didn't make sense?

[davids1]

Thank you, Owen, for that correction/clarification.

As I wrote,

Pauling never mentioned using Bowel Tolerance as his means of deciding upon dosage amount.

In other words, Pauling himself, as far as I can tell, did not use Bowel Tolerance as his way of deciding how much ascorbate he [himself] should ingest, i.e. throughout the day. As you can probably tell, I believe that is an error for anyone, e.g. as Pauling got older, and subsequently contracted cancer, I assume his Bowel Tolerance would have been increasing. In fact, I do not know for sure that Cathcart himself used Bowel Tolerance as his means of deciding how much he should ingest when he felt well.

What does having a lot of mercury in your mouth but none in your hair tell you!?!! That you are a low mercury excretor (same problem with autistics). You tend to retain mercury...

I do not understand. If I "tend to retain mercury" why would it not show up in my hair?

...so your high dosages of ascorbate have a purpose!

By this do you mean that because I am a [naturally] "low mercury excretor" I need to ingest more ascorbate to facilitate that excretion?

Just curious.

Thanks,

David

[Johnwen]

[angiew]

JohnWen, Owen, Davids...

Thanks much for the feedback, much appreciated.

Davids... first I'm a newbie regarding high doses of vit c and the Pauling Therapy.

Concerning my question on the pro-oxidant effects of vit c I've read many places online that state (not studies but people's 2 cents) that vit c is pro-oxidant over 2500+ grams.

[davids1]

Hi Angiew,

...I've read many places online that state (not studies but people's 2 cents) that vit c is pro-oxidant over 2500+ grams.

I assume you meant milligrams [vs. "grams"]. It would be interesting to see the science on that particular theory. I doubt it's true, but if the pharma/medico "mafia" wants to pay for enough "studies" I have little doubt they can convince someone to "produce" the results they are after!

Just my viewpoint,

David

[angiew]

davids,

oops...yes, 2.5 grams,

Yes, I've heard/read pro-oxidant claims.

I'll stick to the Pauling Therapy.

lol.. every time I come across pro-oxidant claims I'll just remind myself of davids and your daily dosage!