Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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studentroland
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#46  Post by studentroland » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:46 pm

That single post could dash all my hopes. I used large amounts of k2 from mk-7 and mk-4 as well as K-1 from a complex only to have my calcium score grow by 20 per year for three years.
To learn that the CEO of Tower laboratories got no benefit from Vitamin C is very disheartening. I was really counting on Vitamin C to tip the scales in the right direction.
Steve

What about the thought that a growing calcium-score could be the result of declining magnesium-levels?
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/magnesium-deficiency-symptoms-and-diagnosis

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#47  Post by stcrim » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:55 pm

My magnesium on my last blood test was 6.7 with the top of the scale being 6.8. Higher may be better but mine was and is pretty high...
Steve

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#48  Post by randian » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:59 pm

stcrim wrote:To learn that the CEO of Tower laboratories got no benefit from Vitamin C is very disheartening. I was really counting on Vitamin C to tip the scales in the right direction.

He got no calcium score benefit. I'm sure he got the usual benefits of Vitamin C. Even if the lysine/proline got rid of non-calcified plaques, I don't think they or V-C would do anything to prevent calcification of the tissues or reduce calcified plaques.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#49  Post by studentroland » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:09 pm

Higher may be better but mine was and is pretty high...

So...what about vitamin D? High or low? Perhaps declining D-levels interfere with the uptake of calcium from the bloodstream?

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#50  Post by stcrim » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:20 pm

My Vitamin D is in the 90s. I take 10,000IU per day. Just to be clear, I love my calcium because it is stable, less vulnerable plaque. No one can eliminate calcified plaque in a year and the likelihood of reducing blood pressure and arterial stiffness are very low as a result of using K-2 or complex. K2 tells your calcium along with D what to do and where to go. It may be useful in calcifying unstable plaque thus saving lives but as far as cleaning the arteries are concerned I really doubt it.
I will continue with my vitamin C (12,000mg per day) and Lysine at 3,000 per day because I am hoping the it too will stabilize at risk plaque.
Steve

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#51  Post by randian » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:27 pm

stcrim wrote:My Vitamin D is in the 90s. I take 10,000IU per day.

I'm jealous. I take 10k IU/day and only get a 25-hydroxy vitamin-D score of 49.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#52  Post by stcrim » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:31 pm

I had to use 20,000 per day for months to get it there but now 10,000 is keeping it there.
Steve

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#53  Post by davids1 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:47 pm

stcrim wrote:That single post could dash all my hopes. I used large amounts of k2 from mk-7 and mk-4 as well as K-1 from a complex only to have my calcium score grow by 20 per year for three years.
To learn that the CEO of Tower laboratories got no benefit from Vitamin C is very disheartening. I was really counting on Vitamin C to tip the scales in the right direction.
Steve
Hi Steve,

Please remember, we do not know [from Owen's post], just how much "vitamin C" the CEO of Tower Labs was ingesting, i.e. was he ingesting a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid daily? If not, was he ingesting enough? And are you?

Just my "two cents worth,"

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#54  Post by Serdna » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:42 am

stcrim wrote:Note: My Ca score is 1401 (no symptoms).
stcrim wrote:I used large amounts of k2 from mk-7 and mk-4 as well as K-1 from a complex only to have my calcium score grow by 20 per year for three years.

Just to clarify. Did your Ca score increase by 20 absolute points or by 20 per cent? If the former, your cardiovascular risk is already ridiculous. Take a look at Figure 2 of Progression of Coronary Artery Calcium and Risk of First Myocardial Infarction in Patients Receiving Cholesterol-Lowering Therapy (via other cholesterol skeptic) or Grace's comment. If the latter I would give a second thought to your diet lowering omega-6 oils. Take a look at the comment by Grace or some of her blog's posts like Cardio Controversies: Dr. Harvey Hecht MD.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#55  Post by stcrim » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:02 am

First score was 899 - threes years later it was 1401. Annualized that's 20 percent. The good news is, that's lower than the average by quite a bit. The unknown news is, was most of that growth in the first year after I took better control of my diet and nutrients and possibly the last year or two were stable? I'll never know. Vitamin C and Lysine are recent additions to my mix and would not have had anything to do with the score change.

Are there any members of this forum who have documented calcium score reductions for any reason, vitamin C or otherwise?

Steve

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#56  Post by Serdna » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:33 am

stcrim wrote:First score was 899 - threes years later it was 1401. Annualized that's 20 percent.

Sorry. Nevertheless (1401/899)^1/3 = 1.16, so you have an annualized 16% increment (899 x 1.16^3 = 1403), so you are not so far away from the 15% cutoff even being pessimistic.

stcrim wrote:The good news is, that's lower than the average by quite a bit. The unknown news is, was most of that growth in the first year after I took better control of my diet and nutrients and possibly the last year or two were stable? I'll never know.
Well, it looks likely that this last year should be lower than 16% and the first one higher.

stcrim wrote:Are there any members of this forum who have documented calcium score reductions for any reason, vitamin C or otherwise?
I am not sure I am going to get one just because it will be meaningless without a second one. I have decided to intervene mainly with diet (LCHF with focus on high saturated low omega-6), but also with vitamins D and K and magnesium. My daily intake of vitamin C is a low dose (something like 3g) though.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#57  Post by bbtri » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:14 pm

stcrim wrote:Are there any members of this forum who have documented calcium score reductions for any reason, vitamin C or otherwise?

It's not on this forum, but here are some people who have reduced theirs:
http://www.trackyourplaque.com/success.aspx

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#58  Post by stcrim » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:04 pm

Serdna,

Thank you for the more accurate calculations. As you pointed out my last year was probably a fairly slow growth. I was an still am hoping that the addition of Vitamin C with assist in this process.

bbtri - I have been a member of Track Your Plaque for the past 3 plus years. There are lots of good folks there but not many that will give Vitamin C any consideration.
Steve

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#59  Post by Serdna » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:03 am

stcrim wrote:I have been a member of Track Your Plaque for the past 3 plus years. There are lots of good folks there but not many that will give Vitamin C any consideration.
Not quite accurate.

Before giving my opinion about vitamin C and cardiovascular disease, I will just disclosure my bias. My vitamin C heroes are late Drs. Klenner and Cathcart. Dr. Levy too. I have a lot of respect for their clinical experience. I haven't read any book by Linus Pauling or Dr. Rath. I gave a try to Dr. Rath's one though. AFAIK it is in this book where the only data in support of coronary artery calcium plaque reversal by vitamin C is presented. I think that piece of evidence is really very scarce. I think that the unified hypothesis proposed by Dr. Rath has not conclusive experiment results backing it up.

Moreover, I don't have in very good regard Dr. Rath's opinions and hypothesis since searching information about vitamin C and AIDS. Where Dr. Cathcart's approach was to titrate vitamin C to AIDS patients (50-200g/day), Dr. Rath's one as far as I can discern is to supplement low amounts (anything bellow saturation) of it. I side with late Dr. Cathcart any time. You must be aware of Dr. Rath's methods too.

Why does anything of these matter? Because the scientific method as brilliantly formalized by Popper needs scientists to design experiments focused into falsify their hypothesis. I am not aware of any of this kind for the unified hypothesis of cardiovascular disease. In contrast, although informally, the Track Your Plaque group mainly directed by Dr. Davis has been checking and updating its approach for some years now. They once included vitamin C. They didn't see an effect on calcium score reversal. So they did consider it and later discarded it upon lack of results.

Does vitamin C have any other positive effect on cardiovascular health? I would think it has. I wouldn't be surprised if it even negates any myocardial infarction possibility. Nevertheless I am unconvinced of the necessity of daily mega doses once focused on vitamins D and K2, magnesium, low carb and low omega-6, so I take 3g/day (more or less a carnivorous liver production) just in case. I don't take any aminoacids outside of my food though.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#60  Post by tjohnson_nb » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:45 pm

Have you heard of Dr. Sydney Bush? http://www.whale.to/a/bush_h.html
He claims to have seen reversal of deposits in blood vessels in the eye.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


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