Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#16  Post by Dolev » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:45 pm

Johnwen,

"V-C replaces sugar in the cells and is used in the production of energy from the individual cells without the damaging effects of sugar."

That's completely new to me. Do you mean that vitamin C actually goes into the Krebs cycle? Do you have a source for that?
Dolev

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#17  Post by Johnwen » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:27 am

Short on time this week but here's one to wet your whistle.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james52.htm

I thought there would be more intrest in CD31 and CD104 guess not?
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#18  Post by angiew » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:35 am

Hi Davids1,

"...basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 50 to 80 grams, in 6 to 12 divided doses."

Wow...that's amazing to me. How has your health been since then?

What about blood work and medical exams, any problems?

Any indicators of pro-oxidant effect of such high dosage?

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#19  Post by ofonorow » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:50 am

angiew wrote:Hi Davids1,

Any indicators of pro-oxidant effect of such high dosage?


Exactly the opposite! If the Cathcart Titrating to Bowel Tolerance paper (now at http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm) doesn't help make that clear, then search for Robert Catchart Vitamin C on youtube - here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdVs6cx6oY. Cathcart's lecture on the Rationale for high dosage ascorbate.

Another good source that should help clear up ANY concern that high dose vitamin C acts like a pro-oxidant - should be dispelled by Dr. Thomas Levy's landmark book PRIMAL PANACEA. Levy reduced the concept to as simple as it gets. Genius.

High vitamin C can induce so-called "pro oxidant" effects, but in a way the body understands and expects - such as increasing Hydrogen Peroxide levels in certain immune cells, etc. On the whole, the more vitamin C that is consumed, the less "oxidative" stress there is in the body (Note: this term lately is used to refer to GSH levels in cells.)
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#20  Post by Johnwen » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:40 pm

This is from a couple of posts back that Owen posted:
This is the full text quote from Owen:

Countless biochemists and chemists discovered what in the wall of the artery causes Lp(a) to adhere and form atherosclerotic plaques and ultimately lead to heart disease, strokes, and peripheral arterial disease. The answer is that there is a particular amino acid in a protein in the wall of the artery - lysine - which is one of the twenty amino acids that binds the Lp(a) and causes atherosclerotic plaques to develop. “I THINK IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT DISCOVERY."


This is what L-Lysine is!

Symbol: lys k
Molecular formula: C6H14N2O2
Molecular weight: 146.19
Isoelectric point (pH): 9.59
Lysine is an amino acid that is not produced by the body, but is essential for the growth and production of proteins. Lysine is classified, as one of the nine essential amino acids in that is must be obtained from outside sources such as foods and supplements. It is required for growth and bone development in children, assists in calcium absorption and maintaining the correct nitrogen balance in the body and maintaining lean body mass. It is also fundamental for the production of antibodies, enzymes, hormones, and for tissue growth and repair. Most individuals have an adequate intake of lysine; however lysine levels may be low in vegetarians and low-fat dieters. Without enough lysine or any other of the eight essential amino acids, the body cannot build protein to sustain muscle tissue.


These are the context of the quotes that trigger the questions.

The answer is that there is a particular amino acid in a protein in the wall of the artery - lysine -


This is the known fact of what L-lysine is.

Lysine is an amino acid that is not produced by the body, but is essential for the growth and production of proteins. Lysine is classified, as one of the nine essential amino acids in that is must be obtained from outside sources such as foods and supplements.


Questions:


Lysine is a product used to produce protein so why does this particular protein with unchanged lysine hang around in the coronary arteries??

What attracts it and why doesn’t it line the entire arterial system??

How does it get into the cellular structure if the cells are using it???

Wouldn’t it be absorbed by the cells before it caused the LP(a) to become attached to it??

Wouldn’t supplementing with L-Lysine be more detrimental then beneficial since taking in more lysine would cause more attachments to these said proteins within the arterial system which would cause more blockages, which would make it a causative agent rather then a correcting agent??
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#21  Post by randian » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:35 pm

Johnwen wrote:Wouldn’t it be absorbed by the cells before it caused the LP(a) to become attached to it??

Perhaps that's why Pauling's recommended dose is so large. My guess is you need some to nourish body, plus extra for binding Lp(a) if necessary. The assumption would be that you give the body free lysine with which to clear out arterial plaques.
Johnwen wrote:Wouldn’t supplementing with L-Lysine be more detrimental then beneficial since taking in more lysine would cause more attachments to these said proteins within the arterial system which would cause more blockages, which would make it a causative agent rather then a correcting agent??

Doesn't the Pauling theory imply that Lp(a) is attaching itself to free lysine, not lysine bound up in arterial walls?

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#22  Post by Johnwen » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:08 pm

randian wrote:Doesn't the Pauling theory imply that Lp(a) is attaching itself to free lysine, not lysine bound up in arterial walls?


That isn't what Owen said that Pauling said!

Owen/Pauling wrote:The answer is that there is a particular amino acid in a protein in the wall of the artery - lysine -


Randian go back and read Owens post on page one and then try to answer the rest of the questions. It gets interesting???
Last edited by Johnwen on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#23  Post by Johnwen » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:17 am

In response to angiew’s question:

The next thing I would like to clarify is first, ”ALL PLAQUE IS REVERSABLE!”
However you must stop the progression before you can reverse the effect.

This is unless your working in the cancer industry where they attempt to reverse the effect without stopping the cause everyday! We all know the great success they have had with this! Unfortunately this mentality has spilled over into all aspects of the medical industry! It is based on the premise, “That once a patient always a patient!” which results in a steady income for the medical industry!

There is a dirty word in the medical industry now a days, it is the word, “CURE!” The word cure has many definitions, Stopping the progression of a disease is one of them. Because to stop it’s progression you have to correct or remove the causative factor and cease it’s adverse function’s. Ie. CURE IT!
“REMISSION,” is the process of removing the damage that was done to the body during the course of the disease and return the body to it’s normal functional state!

In atherosclerosis today’s medicine try’s to tell us that the plaque formation is the problem and by removing the products to produce the plaque you will eliminate the problem. This is the basis for the billion dollar statin industry! We know that hasn’t worked very well either!
Pauling showed us that correcting the underlying problem corrects the cause as while as the effect it has on the system. He done this by giving the body what it needs to stay healthy in the first place as while as the tools to correct those that have failed.
One must understand that plaque is a cover the body places over a damaged area of the artery. It is no more a causative factor in the process then the band-aid you place on a cut is to you getting the cut in the first place. If your cut heals you remove the band-aid! If the cause of the plaque build up is healed the plaque will disappear. Problems come in when the signals coming from the damage area continue being sent out due to the healing process not being completed or the tissue has progressed past survival. Then the body continues to supply the bandaging materials and they clump over the area till the complete pipe is clogged.
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#24  Post by davids1 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:30 am

Hi Angiew,
How has your health been since then?
IMO, you ask an intelligent question.

Next month I will turn 64 years old. I virtually never get sick, e.g. maybe one light headache every other year, and maybe a sinus drainage, i.e. "cold?" once every other year or three (or four?) [certainly nothing that even comes close to sending me to bed]. I take no drugs whatsoever, although I have taken an aspirin a number [15-20?] of times in my life [if the headache bothered me enough]. I quit exercising years ago. My diet, relative to the population as a whole, is good, but FAR from perfect. I am, IMO, probably at least 20 pounds overweight [if not 30]. I am a lacto-vegetarian, for what that might be worth [eating a relatively small amount of cheese], although I do consume, occasionally, small amounts of meat on a pizza.
What about blood work and medical exams, any problems?
I have not been to a doctor since 1971 [when I was in college and it was free (when I burnt myself with some hot popcorn oil)], so I would not know anything about my "blood work." Up until I started with Bowel Tolerance dosing of ascorbic acid, although my health was [relatively] quite good [I exercised fairly extensively], I still did get an [approximately] annual "cold" or so [certainly more extensive, i.e. somewhat more severe and definitely longer lasting, than anything that I have had in the past 19 years].

That [all] being said, my health/physical condition is definitely not perfect! I continue to show the typical signs of aging, e.g. gradual loss of strength, graying of the hair, wrinkling, etc., etc. I no longer have "20/20" vision, although I do not [yet] require glasses [other than occasionally to read particularly fine print, or see detail from a long distance]. I'm pretty sure my hearing has gone down some. I very occasionally get a [mysteriously] slight shaking in my right forearm, i.e. hand [possibly the beginning of "Parkinson's," which my 84 year old Mother has had a mild case of for 20 years]. I would say the most obvious health issue I have had to deal with is my teeth. I have a mouth full of silver/mercury amalgam fillings [and have had them since I was young]. Because of the slight occasional forearm shaking [that began around 5(?) years ago], I had a hair analysis done at that time, and it came back with an unmeasurably low amount of mercury. (They listed 4 possible categories: high, medium, low, and unmeasurable, and I was certainly glad about being in the latter category [given all of the mercury in my mouth]!) As an aside, I assume that the Bowel Tolerance doses of ascorbic acid I ingest daily probably chelated [and continues to chelate] out any mercury getting into my system from the fillings [but I'll probably never know that for sure].
Any indicators of pro-oxidant effect of such high dosage?
This question surprises me, Angiew. Each molecule of ascorbic acid has two "extra" electrons. These electrons are, by definition, reducing, i.e. anti-oxidixing. Like Owen wrote, if the body needs the ascorbate to perform "oxidant" type activities, it simply takes and/or makes what it wants, e.g. dehydroascorbate as a virucidal, etc., etc.

Thanks for your questions, Angiew.

Best of health to you,

David
Last edited by davids1 on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:07 pm

This topic has turned mind bending... Thanks all.

David, Pauling does mention Cathcart and his bowel tolerance notion/paper in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER... You said "never".

David, as you were mentioning Parkinsons - I immediately thought mercury/amalgam fillings (per my Holistic Dentist's theory that ALL of these diseases are caused by heavy metal toxicity, primarily mercury.)

What does having a lot of mercury in your mouth but none in your hair tell you!?!! That you are a low mercury excretor (same problem with autistics). You tend to retain mercury, so your high dosages of ascorbate have a purpose!

Johnwen, I think I missed your point about lysine? Maybe simpler for my simple mind? The strands of lysine that are exposed after injury to an artery (he calls them lysyl residues) are what attracts the Lysine Binding Sites on the Lp(a). Normally, the collagen (made up of lysine and proline) is inside the artery in a triple helix. It is only exposed to the blood when the artery cracks.

So what do you think I said that Pauling said that didn't make sense?
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#26  Post by davids1 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:39 pm

Thank you, Owen, for that correction/clarification.

As I wrote,
Pauling never mentioned using Bowel Tolerance as his means of deciding upon dosage amount.
In other words, Pauling himself, as far as I can tell, did not use Bowel Tolerance as his way of deciding how much ascorbate he [himself] should ingest, i.e. throughout the day. As you can probably tell, I believe that is an error for anyone, e.g. as Pauling got older, and subsequently contracted cancer, I assume his Bowel Tolerance would have been increasing. In fact, I do not know for sure that Cathcart himself used Bowel Tolerance as his means of deciding how much he should ingest when he felt well.
What does having a lot of mercury in your mouth but none in your hair tell you!?!! That you are a low mercury excretor (same problem with autistics). You tend to retain mercury...
I do not understand. If I "tend to retain mercury" why would it not show up in my hair?
...so your high dosages of ascorbate have a purpose!
By this do you mean that because I am a [naturally] "low mercury excretor" I need to ingest more ascorbate to facilitate that excretion?

Just curious.

Thanks,

David
Last edited by davids1 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#27  Post by Johnwen » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:51 pm

OWEN wrote: So what do you think I said that Pauling said that didn't make sense?


It’s Not what I thought you said it’s what you did say!

OWEN wrote: The answer is that there is a particular amino acid in a protein in the wall of the artery - lysine -


There is a big difference between Lysine and Lysyl Oxidase aka Lysyl Residues as described here in Wiki.

WIKI wrote:Allysine is a derivative of lysine, used in the production of elastin and collagen. It is produced by the actions of the enzyme lysyl oxidase on lysine in the extracellular matrix and is essential in the crosslink formation that stabilizes collagen and elastin.


Bear in mind that Pauling has been dead for twenty years and his hypostasis was made many years prior to his passing and at this time the structures of the human body were pretty much based on observed functions and chemical reactions. In the last fifteen years great leaps have been made to observe these structures down to their molecular level and has opened a whole new era and have yield many new forms of the compositions of what once was thought to be a base structure. Now when they look at a cell although they may appear to be the same but when you get down to the molecular structure on it’s surface the difference in it’s molecular patterns show that they function in completely different ways and are cataloged as CD which is “Cluster of Differentiation.” Currently there is over 350 different types recorded. The cells that are of my concern and which are referred to as collagen that holds the endotheil cells together are actually compositions of layers that make up the glue that keeps everything together. Starting near the surface in the area referred to as the “tight junctions.” we have the Caludins 1,5 and 12 Occludin, JAMs, ESAMs and Nectins. In the middle we have the VE-Cadherins then at the bottom of the junction we have the PECAMS which is short for, “Platelet endothelial cell adhesion molecules.” For the sake of keeping it attached we have the N-Cadherin’s which keep’s it attached to the pericyte.
The one that caught my attention was the one called PECAM-1 or CD31 it is a gate keeper signaling molecule. What really motivated me was once I began studying it’s functions is that a lot of it’s functions have been Statinated already. Meaning that the robots from Big Pharma have been hard at work saying, “It has nothing to do with heart disease and too much cholesterol is what causes heart disease! Nothing here has anything to do with it so don’t waste your time studying this substance!” They even paid some robots to do studies to prove this. As you can imagine this thru all kinds of Red Flags up for me so deeper and deeper I went and found that a lot of the actions of this substance parallel’s Pauling’s theory with the exception that this substance is also the gate keeper for the inflammation markers that come into play when a cell is in distress. It also works in conjunction with Vecam-1 as to the amount of signals it sends out to attract a particular LDL derivative to the site of distress. HMMM!
I believe Pauling’s theory’s are valid he knew there was a substance that signaled the problem but what was available to him at that time was enough to bring forth a solution, however there could be no marketable drug the powers to be could profit off of. So they put in motion a Life costing campaign to deceive the public in the name of profits. My above experience proves that there is till this day a all out effort to not allow people to know the truth! I can’t help but to think what could have been had Pauling had this kind of understanding available to him. Perhaps a shot that restarts V-C production in humans and the end of heart disease in the human race.
In the mean time I’ll just keep studying it’s actions and keep taking my V-C and Lysine!
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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#28  Post by angiew » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:42 am

JohnWen, Owen, Davids...

Thanks much for the feedback, much appreciated.

Davids... first I'm a newbie regarding high doses of vit c and the Pauling Therapy.

Concerning my question on the pro-oxidant effects of vit c I've read many places online that state (not studies but people's 2 cents) that vit c is pro-oxidant over 2500+ grams.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#29  Post by davids1 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:09 pm

Hi Angiew,
...I've read many places online that state (not studies but people's 2 cents) that vit c is pro-oxidant over 2500+ grams.
I assume you meant milligrams [vs. "grams"]. It would be interesting to see the science on that particular theory. I doubt it's true, but if the pharma/medico "mafia" wants to pay for enough "studies" I have little doubt they can convince someone to "produce" the results they are after!

Just my viewpoint,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Vit c, lysine or proline for most benefit?

Post Number:#30  Post by angiew » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:53 am

davids,

oops...yes, 2.5 grams,

Yes, I've heard/read pro-oxidant claims.

I'll stick to the Pauling Therapy.

lol.. every time I come across pro-oxidant claims I'll just remind myself of davids and your daily dosage!


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