Vitamin C Forum

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:34 am**

Hi Lolex,

All well and good, but my question is this: Is there even one [documented] case of a person with CAD not being able to reverse it using adequate daily doses, i.e. ideally Bowel Tolerance, of ascorbic acid alone? In other words, is vitamin K really "Essential in Beating CAD?"

Perhaps what you meant was: "Essential" if a person wants to avoid the GI tract [and other organ(s)/bodily system(s)] cleansing effects of ascorbate?

Just asking,

David

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:23 pm**

davids1 wrote:Is there even one [documented] case of a person with CAD not being able to reverse it using adequate daily doses, i.e. ideally Bowel Tolerance, of ascorbic acid alone? In other words, is vitamin K really "Essential in Beating CAD?"

Don't mind me playing devils advocate. But is there even 1 documented case of a person with CAD using Bowel Tolerance of ascorbic acid alone? Just asking :wink:

In my personal opinion CAD has many factors for it's progression. Therefore it is very likely that vitamin K might be essential in some cases.

Those animals which endogenously produce ascorbic acid 24/7 do die of disease and not only old age too.

davids1 wrote:Perhaps what you meant was: "Essential" if a person wants to avoid the GI tract [and other organ(s)/bodily system(s)] cleansing effects of ascorbate?

Just asking

In my case using high-dose ascorbic acid successfully against Intermittent Claudication had the unwanted cleaning side-effect of increasing my elemental magnesium requirement to a minimum of 1.8 g/d for avoiding painful muscle-cramps. Something I never experienced before high dose supplementation.

Read for example this side: http://www.acu-cell.com/vitc.html for other side-effect high doses of Vitamin C could have on Copper, Zinc, Manganese, and Calcium levels in some individuals.

Posted: **Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:14 pm**

Davids1 - you say "my question is this: Is there even one [documented] case of a person with CAD not being able to reverse it using adequate daily doses, i.e. ideally Bowel Tolerance, of ascorbic acid alone? In other words, is vitamin K really "Essential in Beating CAD?"

Well the Track Your Plaque Team clearly say that Pauling Therapy doesn't work very well - which I think is a bit overboard, myself, particularly as there are some testimonials to its success on that forum.

The purpose of my post was to get members to go and have a good look at the science outlined on the Vitamin-K Site and consider it.

It amounts to years of research into Vitamin K and is very persuasive (IMO). But I'm new at this, so am looking for other people's opinions who may have 'been there and done that'.

I've been doing bowel tolerance or thereabouts for three months now.... and I've had a rotten head cold for two weeks now... that shouldn't be happenning. Even doing 5 packs of Lipo-C the last three nights hasn't cleared it.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:57 am**

Well the Track Your Plaque Team clearly say that Pauling Therapy doesn't work very well - which I think is a bit overboard, myself, particularly as there are some testimonials to its success on that forum.

Do you have a link to this team/web site?

My guess is that they are tracking calcium in arteries and if so, they would be correct from our experience to date.

As we have related here over the years, vitamin K is required if the plaque has hardened and is calcified.

There are soft plaques and hard calcified plaques - as evidence from Dr. Bush's retinal photographs. Vitamin C and Lysine (and proline) by themselves do not do much to reverse the hard arterial calcium, but adding a good vitamin K seems to deal with it quickly.

Time to revisit The story. The man who knew Pauling, heard about Lp(a) from him, and formed Tower Laboratories was taking his heart technology for years (he had high blood pressure and prior evidence of heart disease.) A friend had just invented a new type of CT-SCAN and asked Decker if he wanted to test out his product on himself. Decker had the scan and it reported "massive" heart disease - calcium. He checked himself into the hospital, and the angiogram showed that his arteries were wide open and clear.

From this we speculate that if you think of the artery as a pipe - with both an inside to the blood and outside wall, calcium apparently fills in on the outside wall, at least in this case.
The problem is that the artery becomes stiff and cannot dilate properly.

Several years later we were at a trade show together and the next booth was showing a device called CardioVision - (computer that read rapid blood pressure measurements.) - and computed something called the Arterial Stiffness Index - or another way to measure calcium apparently. I was normal (say 50) while Decker was something like 250 - very high, even after several more years on vitamin C and lysine.

I had just read a Life Extension article on vitamin K, on how it acts like a hormone moving calcium from soft tissue into bones, and Decker agreed to try adding vitamin K to his regimen.

A full year later, same trade show, we again had our Arterial Stiffness measured, and while I was the same, Decker's ASI had dropped to normal (around 50) and the ONLY change he made was to add a vitamin K supplement he found at a local health food store to his regimen.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:15 am**

ofonorow wrote:
Well the Track Your Plaque Team clearly say that Pauling Therapy doesn't work very well - which I think is a bit overboard, myself, particularly as there are some testimonials to its success on that forum.

Do you have a link to this team/web site?

That's the most I got out of Dr. Davis years ago about his dabbing into Pauling Therapy (posted as one of the anonymous at 03.12.2009 23:34:16):

http://www.cureality.com/blog/post/2009 ... enges.html

He didn't give Paulings theapy a serious trial. For example he found that Lp(a) in 60% of high dose fish oil users (ie. 6 g/d of EPA/DHA content) would drop after 2-3 years. In comparison, he gave vitamin C only 6 months trials.

His original website was: http://www.trackyourplaque.com/

Since writing his bestseller 'Wheat Belly' he wanted to reach a larger audience with: http://www.cureality.com/Default.aspx

Both are behind pay-wallx. However, since many old-time member got upset by the lack of moderation of one serious troll, they founded an own, free to sign up, forum. Which has attracted most thinkers from the old TYP side: http://www.heartlifetalk.com/

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:23 pm**

Pamojja wrote:Don't mind me playing devils advocate. But is there even 1 documented case of a person with CAD using Bowel Tolerance of ascorbic acid alone? Just asking.

Hi Pamojja,

I don't mind at all!

I draw my conclusion primarily from this quote by Irwin Stone:

A most exciting paper by G.C. Willis (20) appeared in 1957 entitled "the Reversibility of Atherosclerosis." In this study atherosclerosis was induced in guinea pigs by depriving them of ascorbic acid. Some guinea pigs were then given large doses of ascorbic acid and it was found that in these animals the beginning atherosclerotic lesions were rapidly resorbed while the more advanced atherosclerotic plaques on the artery walls took longer. There was a steady decline in the incidence of the lesions in direct proportion to the duration of ascorbic acid therapy.

And thanks for asking,

David

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:51 pm**

My humble view lolex is Vitamin K should be the partner of vitamin C to reverse CAD. Vitamin C is awesome and i use it regularly. Here comes my thoughts and perhaps bad science.: Plaque is made from Fat,Calcium and cholesterol
Vitamin C Proline and Lysine clear outs out the cholesterol in the plaque and prevents further build up as well as begins to fix the vascular structure-hence results will be achieved from the Pauling Therapy-perhaps even full clearance of a blockage if say-enough quantity of Vitamin is used for long enough or perhaps if fat and cholesterol are the first to deposit and begin blocking an artery-(hence easily cleared with just Pauling Therapy??)
Magnesium, vitamin D and vitamin K are very good at clearing out the calcium from the arteries and soft tissues.

Posted: **Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:50 pm**

Owen, thanks very much for your post, it clarifies some important knowledge for me.

You ask "Do you have a link to this team/web site?
My guess is that they are tracking calcium in arteries and if so, they would be correct from our experience to date."

Here are the links, but you have to pay money to access the full forum.

http://www.trackyourplaque.com/default.aspx
http://www.trackyourplaque.com/forum/forumhome.aspx

The post I was referring to is this - (I don't think I'm infringing copyright).

****
Post titled - Anyone try Pauling-vitamin C, proline, lysine therapy? Get success or failure? Started 4/28/2013

Dr Davis Posted on 4/30/2013

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, I have watched around 20+ people try this regimen but have never witnessed any effect on Lp(a) or any other parameter.

But note that the high-dose fish oil (6000 mg EPA + DHA per day, divided into two doses) along with unrestricted fat intake is working gangbusters, though the effect generally requires two years to show itself. We are now approaching 40 people who have dropped Lp(a) to zero.

After those two strategies, correction of thyroid dysfunction with special attention to the T3 thyroid hormone can also be important.

*****
Yes, I think they are focused on calcified plaque there are lots of people quoting calcium scores etc.... and soft plaque can't be measured / scored - am I right about that (soft plaque)?

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:46 am**

Unfortunately, I have watched around 20+ people try this regimen but have never witnessed any effect on Lp(a) or any other parameter.

This would be surprising if accurate, as we see at least 9 out of 10 people improve in almost every way you can think of. Most of the people we follow were severely ill, such as reported by nineboy in this forum.

And if this reference is just to vitamin C and lysine, I agree that Lp(a) would probably only drop approximately 30% (like Niacin). Apparently proline is necessary for a drastic drop in Lp(a)...

If there was a good and accurate way to measure improvement in the arteries (that didn't cost a fortune) someone would have published studies of Pauling's therapy.

And as mentioned here and elsewhere, vitamin K is an important part of the CVD puzzle, especially for people on standard heart medications that deplete or interfere with vitamin K. This story from LEF should have made national news! http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2014/sep2014_The-Surprising-Longevity-Benefits-of-Vitamin-K_01.htm

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:43 am**

Posted: **Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:30 am**

Thanks doc on the vitamin D3 advice w/vitamin K - I recommend sunshine

The question that comes to mind is how much vitamin K do our intestinal flora produce - something like endogenous production, right? (Sometimes baby's have to have vitamin K shots because there are not enough bacteria (flora) in their guts).

Posted: **Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:36 pm**

The question that comes to mind is how much vitamin K do our intestinal flora produce - something like endogenous production, right? (Sometimes baby's have to have vitamin K shots because there are not enough bacteria (flora) in their guts).

I understand we eat Vitamin K1 in our diet(leafy green things) this or some of this is changed into the important Vitamin K2 by our gut flora-IF we have the right gut flora. I was reading a good book which looked at the demographs of disease where closer to the equator there is less so and so, further away more of so and so and the author hypothesised that it was not wholly on account of D3 but also on the amount of K1 produced by the hot sun on the chlorophyll in the plants/grass that the animals grazed and produced k2 which we then ate..
I would respectably add to Johnwens post Vitamin D3,K2 and Magnesium

Posted: **Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:35 pm**

Hi all, Have been reading through all this information. Yes Jimmy I did read your comments before and it led me into this section. I have got myself some K2 mk7 from natto bean. Haven't found all that much up here in my area. However I have just starting taking one capsule a day and will see how it goes.
I am finding with my medication being spread three times a day, plus no statins now. I feel good! I admit I read through this areas discussion on K2 and needed a drink badly. Yes 5 grams of vit C and my lysine and proline. I always feel better for it. Sometimes even a good C flush.
I have bounced back again after a difficult year of unstable angina. I walked 10 k walks twice last week preparing and managing the Terry Fox walk. No pain or angina. I will be back at dancing class soon and hopefully will be able to Dance to my hearts content. Oh good or bad pun. I have got some Magnesium but wanted to start K2 first. I used to dance to Shake Rattle and Roll now I think with all the stuff I take. Maybe rattle is more like it. As you lot keep saying Keep taking your Vitamin C, I believe it and hope to for many years. Didn't Betty White mention she takes it. Thanks Nineboy.

Posted: **Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:43 pm**

ofonorow wrote:
And as mentioned here and elsewhere, vitamin K is an important part of the CVD puzzle, especially for people on standard heart medications that deplete or interfere with vitamin K.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2014/sep2014_The-Surprising-Longevity-Benefits-of-Vitamin-K_01.htm

I know this is an old thread, but I was fascinated to find on page 2 of that article, the information about the anti-cancer properties of vitamin K, of which I was not previously aware. So "K" is an all-round good thing; not just for CVD & osteoporosis.

This story from LEF should have made national news!

Yes indeed.

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