Vitamin B3 ( Niacin) and type 2 diabetic

[tjohnson_nb]

I don't think there is a 'best' form but I personally love the flush from niacin

[blade]

Dolev etc.

Something that Big Pharma Hides and Doc's don't get taught.

INSULIN

Controls Cholesterol!!!

Low Insulin = low cholesterol

Cells eat 2 things Fat and sugar! If they got enough sugar they reject it along with insulin back to the liver it goes! Liver says, Oh they must have enough sugar lets give them the other course of their meal FAT! (cholesterol=Fat wrapped in a package because fat don't do so good in watery substances)
I have a flow chart if you wish I can post it.

I was runnning around the site and I came upon this.

I dont understand this because of my dad
he has high insulin and total cholesterol 114 (mg/dL)
HDL 26 (mg/dL)
LDL 74 (mg/dL
triglycerides 69 (20-150)mg/dL)
vitD 57ng/ml (30-100)
HS-CRP .2 mg/L
A1C---7 4-6
fasting glucose 144
total T 293ng/dl (240-950)
E2: 44(18-40)

he is seeing a MD to get his T/E ratio better, his E2 down, but his blood sugar is out of control yet he has good cholesterol?

[ofonorow]

This was johnwen's insight, so I leave the response to him.

There are two hormones for sugar control - insulin everyone has heard of - and glucagon.

[Serdna]

hi everyone,

Will 1000mg of daily Vitamin B3 ( Niacin) cause a raise in blood sugar and causes type 2 diabetic?

It certainly raises blood sugar. As stated by Kindke:

REMEMBER the secret to niacin is to take it away from food and to fast for 5-6 hours after because it makes your serum FFA spike which in turns make you severely glucose intolerant and insulin resistant.

Well, I measured my blood glucose level (I like it below 140mg/dl at 1 hour and below 120mg/dl at 2 hours) when taking 100mg of niacin with a medium-high carbohydrate meal (watermelon, ham, seafood cocktail with potato, chocolate):

• 94mg/dl just before eating.
• 106mg/dl at 1 hour.
• 133mg/dl at 2 hours.

Even taking it at breakfast (low-carb) keeps having an effect at lunch (paella, dark chocolate):

• 114mg/dl just after eating.
• 105mg/dl at 1 hour.
• 147mg/dl at 2 hours.
• 119mg/dl at 3 hours.
• 114mg/dl at 4 hours.

So I only take niacin when there is going to be an eight hour span between them or lunch is going to be low-carb.

I add for completeness my blood glucose level after a frugal lunch (white coffee, potato omelet, some cheese and some hazelnuts) today 1/20/2015 following a low-carb breakfast with 100mg niacin 7 hours earlier:

• 97mg/dl just after eating.
• 95mg/dl at 1 hour.
• 88mg/dl at 2 hours.

My working hypothesis is that short-term benefits of niacin are negated by increasing blood glucose levels if not dodged.

How does one raise cholesterol level? I just received the blood tests of a problematic young man with a total cholesterol of 103.

Increasing saturated fat? It drives both LDL and HDL up. Vitamin D seems to drive HDL up in the long term.

Since I gorge on saturated fat (hard cheeses and butter mainly) and keep my 25-OH-vitamin-D higher than 50ng/ml year round I don't know which one is to blame of my numbers (last April):

• TC 369mg/dl,
• HDL 105mg/dl,
• TG 81mg/dl.

By the way I take 3g/day of vitamin C to keep my acne in check. I am not going to up it any time soon since I like my numbers as they are.

[Johnwen]

I dont understand this because of my dad
he has high insulin and total cholesterol 114 (mg/dL)
HDL 26 (mg/dL)
LDL 74 (mg/dL
triglycerides 69 (20-150)mg/dL)
vitD 57ng/ml (30-100)
HS-CRP .2 mg/L
A1C---7 4-6
fasting glucose 144
total T 293ng/dl (240-950)
E2: 44(18-40)

He is seeing a MD to get his T/E ratio better, his E2 down, but his blood sugar is out of control yet he has good cholesterol?

BLADE:

Two things that are in need of correction Here!!!

1.) Fasting Glucose is NOT INSULIN!!!!!! Normal Glucose Levels are 80 to 99 Mg/dL Since His fasting glucose level is 144Mg/dL It is quite appearent he is INSULIN DEFFICENT!! Be it low production (Type 1) or Ineffective Insulin (type 2)

Here’s what a insulin test is and what is normal!
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding ... n/tab/test


2.) His total cholesterol is NOT GOOD! In fact it’s in the down right Dangerous levels. Anything below 150 Mg/dL the body goes into survival mode and the first things to shut down are Hormone production. Which in your dad’s case is very apparent by his low T levels which are allowing his E2 (estrogen) levels to increase. His cortisol levels are probably bottomed out also!

What you have presented here just proves the point if not enough insulin is present the cholesterol production will be (is) low!

Without knowing you or your dad I’m going to take a shot here about what your Dad is experiencing as far as symptoms.

I estimate his age is in the late 50’s to early 60’s.
He’s probably experiencing fatigue and excessive tiredness. His joints hurt and present with arthritis type symptoms. He has a hard time concentrating on one subject Like reading. When you talk to him at times he hears you but ask’s you to repeat things. Rather short tempered lately. He probably had some cardiac problems like arrhythmias high blood pressure and some sort of urinary problems. It probably seems like every time you see him he got a cold or is coughing up globs! Then there’s that mid section bulge better known as a DUNLAP because it done laps over his belt!
Generally he don’t seem like the guy that raised you!

If this hit’s home on a few of these he’s seeing the results of low cholesterol and the lack of hormones that follows.

If he is diabetic he needs to talk to his doc about upping his dosage of insulin which will not only lower his sugar levels but allow his body to start getting his cholesterol up into a safe range. If he’s taking a statin drug he needs to get off it asap! Then cut the sugar and carb’s till his insulin is back on track!

Then there’s those that will bring up the issue of supplementing with the “Death Hormone!” Cortisol! But in reality it only masks the true problem and presents other problems.

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/cort ... th-hormone

[exitium]

What is the best form of Niacin one should be taking for good overall health?

Straight up niacin that causes the flush has the most benefits. Ive been taking 3g a day for close to a year now.

[blade]

I dont understand this because of my dad
he has high insulin and total cholesterol 114 (mg/dL)
HDL 26 (mg/dL)
LDL 74 (mg/dL
triglycerides 69 (20-150)mg/dL)
vitD 57ng/ml (30-100)
HS-CRP .2 mg/L
A1C---7 4-6
fasting glucose 144
total T 293ng/dl (240-950)
E2: 44(18-40)

He is seeing a MD to get his T/E ratio better, his E2 down, but his blood sugar is out of control yet he has good cholesterol?

BLADE:

Two things that are in need of correction Here!!!

1.) Fasting Glucose is NOT INSULIN!!!!!! Normal Glucose Levels are 80 to 99 Mg/dL Since His fasting glucose level is 144Mg/dL It is quite appearent he is INSULIN DEFFICENT!! Be it low production (Type 1) or Ineffective Insulin (type 2)

Here’s what a insulin test is and what is normal!
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding ... n/tab/test


2.) His total cholesterol is NOT GOOD! In fact it’s in the down right Dangerous levels. Anything below 150 Mg/dL the body goes into survival mode and the first things to shut down are Hormone production. Which in your dad’s case is very apparent by his low T levels which are allowing his E2 (estrogen) levels to increase. His cortisol levels are probably bottomed out also!

What you have presented here just proves the point if not enough insulin is present the cholesterol production will be (is) low!

Without knowing you or your dad I’m going to take a shot here about what your Dad is experiencing as far as symptoms.

I estimate his age is in the late 50’s to early 60’s.
He’s probably experiencing fatigue and excessive tiredness. His joints hurt and present with arthritis type symptoms. He has a hard time concentrating on one subject Like reading. When you talk to him at times he hears you but ask’s you to repeat things. Rather short tempered lately. He probably had some cardiac problems like arrhythmias high blood pressure and some sort of urinary problems. It probably seems like every time you see him he got a cold or is coughing up globs! Then there’s that mid section bulge better known as a DUNLAP because it done laps over his belt!
Generally he don’t seem like the guy that raised you!

If this hit’s home on a few of these he’s seeing the results of low cholesterol and the lack of hormones that follows.

If he is diabetic he needs to talk to his doc about upping his dosage of insulin which will not only lower his sugar levels but allow his body to start getting his cholesterol up into a safe range. If he’s taking a statin drug he needs to get off it asap! Then cut the sugar and carb’s till his insulin is back on track!

Then there’s those that will bring up the issue of supplementing with the “Death Hormone!” Cortisol! But in reality it only masks the true problem and presents other problems.

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/cort ... th-hormone

66yo
the MD ordered new labs, we'll see what they say
If anything he has more energy than when I was a kid, he works out, willl do HIIT over walking, and has a stressful job, but doesnt show that stress at home.
He isnt on insulin, I believe he is on metaformin, but I'll check into that.
I dont see him without a shirt for about a year, but back then he has a small belly not a big one.
When I was a kid, he had a huge belly,
he is not at all short tempered.
He has no cough, my mom is the one who always seems to be coughing and she gets mad when I point it out.
My mom went with him to the MD and they went over his diet, no one can see any sugar/carbs to cut. He is eating mostly meat/eggs/fruit/lots of veggies

no statin, no BP meds, no cortisol

I never suggested his 144 FG was insulin, I know it's blood sugar. duh
so you think he should go on Insulin because he isnt making enough?>

see, I think he needs to fix his testosterone first, while keeping his estadiol in check, his testostrone is low(293) and estradiol high(44) giving him a 7 (t/e) and men in their 20-30 have a ratio above 30-50/

I dont see him needing insulin, until he tries to fix his T/E. so he should go on TRT and then maybe his FBG will go down.

The connection might not seem obvious at first, but low testosterone and diabetes often go hand in hand. In fact, men with type 2 diabetes are twice as likely to have low testosterone as men who don't have diabetes.
http://www.everydayhealth.com/health-re ... betes.aspx


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21646372
Low testosterone in men with type 2 diabetes: significance and treatment.

CONCLUSIONS:

The key response to the aging, overweight man with type 2 diabetes and subnormal testosterone levels should be implementation of lifestyle measures such as weight loss and exercise, which, if successful, raise testosterone and provide multiple health benefits. Although approved therapy for diabetes should be used, testosterone therapy should not be given to such men until benefits and risks are clarified by adequately powered clinical trials.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20126841
The role of testosterone in type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome in men.
So far, studies on the effects of normalization of testosterone in hypogonadal men on glucose homeostasis are limited, but convincing, and if diabetes mellitus is viewed in the context of the metabolic syndrome, the present results of testosterone treatment are very encouraging.


Men's health, low testosterone, and diabetes: individualized treatment and a multidisciplinary approach.
Data suggest that testosterone therapy may have a positive effect on bones, muscles, erythropoiesis and anemia, libido, mood and cognition, penile erection, cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, glycated hemoglobin, insulin resistance, visceral adiposity, and quality of life
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19020265

[Johnwen]

Blade;

The Leydig cells use What to make androgens including testosterone??

If the body is low on this substance the Leydig cells can stimulate production at a low level of what??
To maintain their production at a reduced level!

[blade]

Blade;

The Leydig cells use What to make androgens including testosterone??

If the body is low on this substance the Leydig cells can stimulate production at a low level of what??
To maintain their production at a reduced level!

so you say it's low cholesterol as to why he has high a1c, low testosterone?
he has had this level of cholesterol his whole life and I said to you previously he exhibits none of the side effects you mentioned.


Hey, I'm all for you being right, but what is the solution you are saying to do?
raise his cholestrol?(how?)
give him insulin(isnt that treating the symptoms and not the underlying cause?


Why dont you think his high a1c is caused by his low testostrone?
He's in his late 60s, Testostrone starts falling after you turn 30 or so,.

I mean based on the studies I pointed out that high a1c is fixed by TRT?
or like this one
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18772488
Androgen therapy of hypogonadal men improves insulin sensitivity, fasting glucose, and HbA1c level

so what do you think he should do?

my solution, based on the studies I've shown you is to raise his low testosterone. but also keeping his estradiol in range..

[Johnwen]

Blade;

I’d take a good hard look at the pancreas first starting with some simple blood tests.

Blood Test’s;

Amylase
Lipase
Serum Glucagon
Serum Insulin
A1c (actual not calculated)
Chem 12 (CMP)

Stool Test;

Fecal elastase-1

First A1c is the average of glucose levels High means he’s been experiencing high glucose levels for a period of more then 2 month’s!
So as far as the a1c being high is a sign, it just shows he’s not producing or using insulin properly and with the resulting LOW Cholesterol he’s not going to be able to produce enough T. Like a factory that doesn’t have enough raw materials it’ll only produce what it can, with what it got to work with!
T is a product that needs cholesterol to be produced!

Sometimes doc’s over look the basic’s and only threat the symptoms in your dad’s case he COULD have something like a gall stone that’s gumming up the works yet it’s not showing any symptoms so that’s not what the doc’s are looking at or for. Today’s doc’s seem to forget that the body works as a system and what’s causing one problem maybe something that’s messed up that’s not showing any indications of being the main problem. Then there’s the “Treat em and Street Em!” attitude that I won’t get into!

[blade]

Blade;

I’d take a good hard look at the pancreas first starting with some simple blood tests.

Blood Test’s;

Amylase
Lipase
Serum Glucagon
Serum Insulin
A1c (actual not calculated)
Chem 12 (CMP)

Stool Test;

Fecal elastase-1

First A1c is the average of glucose levels High means he’s been experiencing high glucose levels for a period of more then 2 month’s!
So as far as the a1c being high is a sign, it just shows he’s not producing or using insulin properly and with the resulting LOW Cholesterol he’s not going to be able to produce enough T. Like a factory that doesn’t have enough raw materials it’ll only produce what it can, with what it got to work with!
T is a product that needs cholesterol to be produced!

Sometimes doc’s over look the basic’s and only threat the symptoms in your dad’s case he COULD have something like a gall stone that’s gumming up the works yet it’s not showing any symptoms so that’s not what the doc’s are looking at or for. Today’s doc’s seem to forget that the body works as a system and what’s causing one problem maybe something that’s messed up that’s not showing any indications of being the main problem. Then there’s the “Treat em and Street Em!” attitude that I won’t get into!

hmmm,if he has low T because he has low cholestrol and cholestrol makes Test, please help me understand why I had a test that shows me having a total cholesterol of 152 and yet a testosterone of over 600.
and a year before that had cholesterol well over 200, yet my total T was about 350

so let's go back to what I asked you,

Why dont you think his high a1c is caused by his low testosterone?
He's in his late 60s, Testosterone starts falling after you turn 30 or so

plus I showed you a few studies liking high A1c to lowT and how HRT, resolves the issue.

and he has always had low cholesterol. so I think his low T is the issue, why don't you think that is the issue?

instead you want me to force him to run serveral tests looking for something that he shows no symptoms of?

-note, I'm not saying step one is shoot him with some test. cyp, but to lower his high e2, see if things resolve then do HRT

[exitium]

Saying step one is shoot him with some test. cyp, but to lower his high e2, see if things resolve then do HRT

Since E levels are used as one of the feedback mechanisms to test production lowering E likely will have a positive effect on test levels but I think your going about this all wrong. You seem to be hell bent on finding a smoking gun BUT I would wager the problem is more broad in nature.

high E and low T can be caused and affected by many things but what they all have in common is nutrition or lack thereof. Whether by exposure to toxins, parasites, virus's, poor food sources or what have you, deprive the body of the basic underlying building blocks for optimal organism function and things begin to break down.

I commented on another thread you posted in about this and my recommendation would be to go after the pauling therapy but dont stop there, identify and add in all the other nutrients as well. Many of the B vits are critical for proper sexual hormone production along with zinc and magnesium. There is plenty of science also linking thyroid function to sex hormone levels. Give your fathers body the nutrients needed to support thryoid function like lugols iodine and selenium.

Potassium is also hugely missing from most peoples diet and the list goes on. Proper supplements in the proper form are key. b12 should be taken transdermally or sublingually and should ideally be methylcobalamin (source naturals is only brand I have found to work so far). Use methyl folate and not folic acid.

[blade]

Saying step one is shoot him with some test. cyp, but to lower his high e2, see if things resolve then do HRT

Since E levels are used as one of the feedback mechanisms to test production lowering E likely will have a positive effect on test levels but I think your going about this all wrong. You seem to be hell bent on finding a smoking gun BUT I would wager the problem is more broad in nature.

high E and low T can be caused and affected by many things but what they all have in common is nutrition or lack thereof. Whether by exposure to toxins, parasites, virus's, poor food sources or what have you, deprive the body of the basic underlying building blocks for optimal organism function and things begin to break down.

I commented on another thread you posted in about this and my recommendation would be to go after the pauling therapy but dont stop there, identify and add in all the other nutrients as well. Many of the B vits are critical for proper sexual hormone production along with zinc and magnesium. There is plenty of science also linking thyroid function to sex hormone levels. Give your fathers body the nutrients needed to support thryoid function like lugols iodine and selenium.

Potassium is also hugely missing from most peoples diet and the list goes on. Proper supplements in the proper form are key. b12 should be taken transdermally or sublingually and should ideally be methylcobalamin (source naturals is only brand I have found to work so far). Use methyl folate and not folic acid.

Exactly, you are preaching to the choir here.
Yes, I've done what you suggest for myself. I try to get all my vitamins/minerals from food. cept b12, MG, and vit K.(the symbol for potassium on the periodic table of elements is a K, potassium is not the same as vitamin K)
and Super K with Advanced K2 Complex
I use http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?dbid ... e=nutrient
I use consumerlabs to determine what vitamins to take
nican, W-3s, b12
this shocks my parents as I hated veggies as a kid, yet now eat the same mixed veggies I refused to as a kid and eat spinach/kale/arugula

Back to my dad:

but my dad also loves broccoli and eats 2-3lbs a day, so I doubt the issue is K.
My mom feeds him garlic, avacado and a few other things he wouldnt eat on his own.

His blood tests show no issues with his thyroid or any other issue.
Do you have a study that shows a man his mid 60s with symtoms of anything else, except high FBS/A1c and low T is made better by taking more vitamins? or by fixing his lack of nutrition?
if so, I'd jump on making him take more X, to fix his lowT/high a1c

Yet, I do show studies that show the issue is men his age have decreased testosterone, and that giving them TRT resolves his A1c/low T.

Do you think a man starts losing Testosterone starting in his 30s, is because of a lack of a vitamin/mineral?

Well, I did find one...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8756540
it's about mice
Potassium deficiency produced by feeding mice a low potassium diet caused a marked decrease in plasma and testicular testosterone concentrations

but I doubt I can get my Dad to change what he does now...so why not use TRT to fix the underlying issue which is high A1c/low T?

Destroying the Myth About Testosterone Replacement and Prostate Cancer
By Abraham Morgentaler, MD, Facs
http://www.lef.org/Magazine/2008/12/Des ... er/Page-01

Testosterone Replacement Therapy and Prostate Risks
: Where’s the
Beef?
Abraham Morgentaler, MD
http://itr8.com/hosted/b2bcast/schering ... ntaler.pdf


Now a bigger question is does Vit C fix heart health? so what about a man with low T? does his LowT supersede the VC issue?
low testosterone as a cardiovascular risk factor
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834340/
Male hypogonadism now has a new spectrum of complications. They are mainly cardiometabolic in nature. Low serum testosterone levels are a risk factor for diabetes, metabolic syndrome, inflammation and dyslipidemia.

My dad has loW T and diabees, maybe met s?, now inflammation(HS-CRP says) and no dyslipidemia.
metabolic syndrome is CAD, with the symotoms of
Blood pressure equal to or higher than 130/85 mmHg--no
Fasting blood sugar (glucose) equal to or higher than 100 mg/dL--yes
Large waist circumference (length around the waist): For men, 40 inches or more; for women, 35 inches or more-no
Low HDL (good) cholesterol: For men, 40 mg/dL or less; for women, 50 mg/dL or less --no
Triglycerides equal to or higher than 150 mg/dL -no
He does workout most days a week. he eats mostly veggies. and eggs/fish(salmon I think)

[Johnwen]

I agree with ExT. that you seem hell bent on this so I can just wish you the best of luck to your dad. However with more then 40 years of clinical experience under my belt. It would not be the route I would pursue to correct his problems and I doubt any other physician would write a script for t-replacement without more in depth testing and correction of existing problems before instituting this therapy.
But there is the one’s who would use the, “try and see approach,” However to me the risks far out weight any benefit he would gain from this.

As far as your claim about the links you provided, below you might be interested in what was written in, an linked too within them! It’s not all good as you proclaim them to be!

If you do succeed in finding a doc who’s willing to take a shot in the dark my hopes are that your dad is among those who experience a benefit from it. Just remember with any hormone replacement therapy that the ugly side that don’t show it’s head right away and may come on with a vengeance a few month’s down the road. So constant periodical monitoring is essential!

From the first link you provided in the related articles!

http://www.everydayhealth.com/health-re ... erone.aspx


From the full text article in the link you provided!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21646372

Indications for testosterone therapy should be no different to men without diabetes and be reserved for clinical androgen deficiency with sustained, unequivocally low testosterone after appropriate diagnostic workup. Testosterone therapy should not be routinely given to men with diabetes and low-normal testosterone until benefit is confirmed by well-conducted clinical trials.

In this study of 30 men around 30 years old! The thing I find interesting is where it comes from!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20126841

Disclosure: the author is an employee of Bayer-Schering Pharma, the manufacturer of testosterone products.

Then from the last link here; From full test version
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19020265

These authors also are employed by drug companies! Remember there’s a lot of lawsuits filed for older men who had complications from TRT!
So they have to throw up a lot of defenses

Clinical Interventions in Aging 2012:7The limitations to our study are characteristic of patient registries where, unlike placebo-controlled studies, physician and patient behavior are not directed. There was a high degree of variability in inter-patient data collection, no standardized definition of TD, no testosterone washout period before enrollment, no centralized laboratory testing facility, and no standardized time of testosterone draw. The differences between the primary age groups in enrollment sample size, although expected given that the study is not a controlled trial, may have influenced statistical analyses. Also, patient-supplied records were the evidence used for drug compliance.

All these sound great in abstract till you get into the meat of the study then you start finding the pitfalls!

You keep claiming that raising T is a cure! It’s not!! Low t is a symptom of something else going wrong in the system that supplies it’s production!
Plain and simple however it appears your stuck on it being a cure all! It’s my hope if you get a script for it. I just hope your dad don’t have to pay the price!

[blade]

I agree with ExT. that you seem hell bent on this so I can just wish you the best of luck to your dad. However with more then 40 years of clinical experience under my belt. It would not be the route I would pursue to correct his problems and I doubt any other physician would write a script for t-replacement without more in depth testing and correction of existing problems before instituting this therapy.

LOL
HELL BENT?
nah, Im looking for an answer to help the man, Ive shown that HRT does raise T and considerable lower A1c
why are you so hyper-hell bent not using TRT?
do you have experience with TRT?

I'm just asking stuff to understand your view.
Telling me, "test him for XYZ" is costly and inefficient, it may not solve any problem at all.
This is where I'm baffled by the inconsistencies. His GP gave him TRT already, a few years ago, some transdermal patches/or gel. This was before my involvement, and I can't get records showing what the TRT they gave him actually did.
but he only did it for a month or so.
They didn't even do testing!

I got them to do testing, last may and they have results showing he was at 293(last may)(240-950), so he is in range, he has about 30% of normal. IE not a passing grade in school, If I came home with a 35% on a test, I'd get into trouble.

But there is the one’s who would use the, “try and see approach,” However to me the risks far out weight any benefit he would gain from this

That's what I'm asking about, what are the risks you see? I know lots of guys on TRT and the risks have a lot to do with uncontrolled estradiol management, letting hemocrit get to high . Yes, high estradiol is a risk and as I've previously stated, the plan is NOT to just shoot him full of Test. cyp and see what happens,
But first to control estadiol, then see his Test levels at, then do TRT, if warranted.
See you claim there is some risk to TRT that you arent telling me, but low testosterone is a risk factor for arteriosclerosis, increase cardiac mortality already.

As far as your claim about the links you provided, below you might be interested in what was written in, an linked too within them! It’s not all good as you proclaim them to be!

ok like what? instead of linking me to read a bunch of stuff, why not just say the risks?
LOL and you dont think he is already at risk with high A1c and low T?

If you do succeed in finding a doc who’s willing to take a shot in the dark my hopes are that your dad is among those who experience a benefit from it. Just remember with any hormone replacement therapy that the ugly side that don’t show it’s head right away and may come on with a vengeance a few month’s down the road. So constant periodical monitoring is essential

1st off, his GP already put him on TRT a few years ago, that lasted a month.
something I wasnt told at the time YEARS ago with no testing.....
shot in the dark? nope, it's not. see it's established he has low T, high A1c and his other labs are all normal. how is this a shot in Dark? its not all, try to stick to the facts and not added drama!
kthx
He is already doing constant monitoring...

As I've been saying, it's not just a shot and be done, it takes work, just like his high a1c means he has to watch what he eats... Why do you keep alluding to some vague con to HRT? what could bring "vengeance down the road"??(another vague, useless term, but I do like the added drama!)

oh, besides the issue of him having both high A1c and low Testosterone, that is an established risk he has. He isnt sitting healthy/pretty, there is a need to fix his hormonal panel asap.

From the first link you provided in the related articles!
http://www.everydayhealth.com/health-re ... erone.aspx

yes as the link says:
Diabetes, obesity, and even certain medications can be causes of low testosterone.

He isnt fat,. although why does obesity cause low T? as I said:
too much aromotase which lowers T and raises estradiol.
But you hit on a topic Ive tried to fix, but it's not happening with him.
See, My dad has lost weight in the past 2 years. and now isnt losing more, but he doesnt have a pot belly anymore

BUT yes, I agree, I am currently still trying to get my dad's bodyfat analyzed (bod-pod bodyfat analysis?) to see how much fat he has. I went from 35-17% bodyfat and my testosterone nearly doubled since i lost so much of bellyfat/aromotase that was lowering it.

Since I'm having trouble getting him to do a simple test(and you want me to have him get costly/random blood tests? yeah, compliance is also an issue)

he won't even log his food(like I had my mom do a few years ago and she lost all that weight) his urologist he saw(a few days ago) is doing new blood tests AND made it clear that he needs to log what he eats. so now he might do it now, but 95%+ he eats what my mom gives him, so I'm not sure how much this is a cause...his biggest vice from what I saw is he eats 2-3+lbs of broccoli/day BUT he used to boil it until it was limp.. now he nukes it and tries to eat much more undercooked,

I've told him this for some time, as he takes him blood sugar every morning(part of his monitoring! OMG) and it fluctuates by a wide margin. Why would that be unless he eats stuff no one knows about.
Yes, he is diabetic.

From the full text article in the link you provided

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21646372

Indications for testosterone therapy should be no different to men without diabetes and be reserved for clinical androgen deficiency with sustained, unequivocally low testosterone after appropriate diagnostic workup. Testosterone therapy should not be routinely given to men with diabetes and low-normal testosterone until benefit is confirmed by well-conducted clinical trials.

In this study of 30 men around 30 years old! The thing I find interesting is where it comes from!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20126841

Disclosure: the author is an employee of Bayer-Schering Pharma, the manufacturer of testosterone products.

Then from the last link here; From full test version
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19020265

These authors also are employed by drug companies! Remember there’s a lot of lawsuits filed for older men who had complications from TRT!(pop quiz, why do OLD guys on TRT have issues?)_

So they have to throw up a lot of defenses

Clinical Interventions in Aging 2012:7The limitations to our study are characteristic of patient registries where, unlike placebo-controlled studies, physician and patient behavior are not directed. There was a high degree of variability in inter-patient data collection, no standardized definition of TD, no testosterone washout period before enrollment, no centralized laboratory testing facility, and no standardized time of testosterone draw. The differences between the primary age groups in enrollment sample size, although expected given that the study is not a controlled trial, may have influenced statistical analyses. Also, patient-supplied records were the evidence used for drug compliance.

All these sound great in abstract till you get into the meat of the study then you start finding the pitfalls!

You keep claiming that raising T is a cure! It’s not!!wrong,but you have to do it right Low t is a symptom of something else going wrong in the system that supplies it’s production!(yeah like getting old and/or fat)
Plain and simple however it appears your stuck on it being a cure all! It’s my hope if you get a script for it. I just hope your dad don’t have to pay the price!

what price? wtf are you referring to?
why are you hell bent on TRT IS evil"?
why do you think risks happen on TRT?
-=high hemocrit, uncontrolled Total T, uncontrolled Estadiol, being fat, not working out, pre-coniditionas. etc

did you read what I wrote before?
his GH gave him TRT without testing years ago

But there is the one’s who would use the, “try and see approach,” However to me the risks far out weight any benefit he would gain from this

That's what I'm asking about, what are the risks you see? I know lots of guys on TRT and the risks have a lot to do with uncontrolled estradiol management, letting hemocrit get to high . Yes, high estradiol is a risk and as I've previously stated, the plan is NOT to just shoot him full of Test. cyp and see what happens,
But first to control estadiol, then see his Test levels at, then do TRT, if warranted.
See you claim there is some risk to TRT that you arent telling me, but low testosterone is a risk factor for arteriosclerosis, increase cardiac mortality already.

As far as your claim about the links you provided, below you might be interested in what was written in, an linked too within them! It’s not all good as you proclaim them to be!

where did I say that TRT wasnt work?
I did say I would NOT shoot him with Test cyp and be doe
stop trying to add drama, just stick to what is written, eh?
ok like what? instead of linking me to read a bunch of stuff, why not just say the risks?
LOL and you dont think he is already at risk with high A1c and low T?

If you do succeed in finding a doc who’s willing to take a shot in the dark my hopes are that your dad is among those who experience a benefit from it. Just remember with any hormone replacement therapy that the ugly side that don’t show it’s head right away and may come on with a vengeance a few month’s down the road. So constant periodical monitoring is essential

1st off, his GP already put him on TRT a few years ago, that lasted a month.
something I wasnt told at the time YEARS ago with no testing.....
shot in the dark? nope, it's not. see it's established he has low T, high A1c and his other labs are all normal. how is this a shot in Dark? its not all, try to stick to the facts and not added drama!
kthx
He is already doing constant monitoring...

As I've been saying, it's not just a shot and be done, it takes work, just like his high a1c means he has to watch what he eats... Why do you keep alluding to some vague con to HRT? what could bring "vengeance down the road"??(another vague, useless term, but I do like the added drama!)

oh, besides the issue of him having both high A1c and low Testosterone, that is an established risk he has. He isnt sitting healthy/pretty, there is a need to fix his hormonal panel asap.

From the first link you provided in the related articles!
http://www.everydayhealth.com/health-re ... erone.aspx

yes as the link says:
Diabetes, obesity, and even certain medications can be causes of low testosterone.

He isnt fat,. although why does obesity cause low T? as I said:
too much aromotase which lowers T and raises estradiol.
But you hit on a topic Ive tried to fix, but it's not happening with him.
See, My dad has lost weight in the past 2 years. and now isnt losing more, but he doesnt have a pot belly anymore

BUT yes, I agree, I am currently still trying to get my dad's bodyfat analyzed (bod-pod bodyfat analysis?) to see how much fat he has. I went from 35-17% bodyfat and my testosterone nearly doubled since i lost so much of bellyfat/aromotase that was lowering it.

Since I'm having trouble getting him to do a simple test(and you want me to have him get costly/random blood tests? yeah, compliance is also an issue)

he won't even log his food(like I had my mom do a few years ago and she lost all that weight) his urologist he saw(a few days ago) is doing new blood tests AND made it clear that he needs to log what he eats. so now he might do it now

I've told him this for some time, as he takes him blood sugar every morning(part of his monitoring! OMG) and it fluctuates by a wide margin. Why would that be unless he eats stuff no one knows about.
Yes, he is diabetic.

From the full text article in the link you provided!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21646372


In this study of 30 men around 30 years old! The thing I find interesting is where it comes from!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20126841

Disclosure: the author is an employee of Bayer-Schering Pharma, the manufacturer of testosterone products.

65

These authors also are employed by drug companies! Remember there’s a lot of lawsuits filed for older men who had complications from TRT!(pop quiz, why do OLD guys on TRT have issues?)_

So they have to throw up a lot of defenses
All these sound great in abstract till you get into the meat of the study then you start finding the pitfalls!

You keep claiming that raising T is a cure! It’s not!!wrong,but you have to do it right Low t is a symptom of something else going wrong in the system that supplies it’s production!(yeah like getting old and/or fat)
Plain and simple however it appears your stuck on it being a cure all! It’s my hope if you get a script for it. I just hope your dad don’t have to pay the price!

what price? wtf are you referring to?

why do you think risks happen on TRT?

did you read what I wrote before?
you gave me a lot of vague "stuff" about risks of TRT, and guess what., those studies are about men who arent doing what my dad does.

eat a healthy diet(from what everyone sees)
exercises 4-6 days week, has good lipids,

and Im recall I've said many times now, the 1st step is managing his high estradiol. then look at his Total T.
-high e2 is NOT usually managed by men on HRT/TRT and why problems happen.
case in point, recall my Dad was ON TRT, without any testing.... that's what MDs do, they write scripts of androgel/transdermal because a fat guy sits in their office complaining he can't get it up, he feels run down, etc
so MD gives them TRT with no testing
I know this from my Dad's experience and from other forums about HRT/TRT!

I'm not sure if you have any experience with TRT/HRT, but I've friends who do it and they are young, so they see no issues with "blast and cruise", where they get their testosterone up over 1000 and they take HCG to prevent ball shrinkage, and since they are lean they MIGHT not have to worry about e2. but they dont test and they don't care!
so do you really think those on TRT are doing it properly or are well tested? Why do you think that?

you keep saying that I'm dead set on TRT, which is wrong, as I give you studies to support how it fixes his issues, yet you rebuttal with vague "risks"
This is a last step, Ive done other steps before
I've fixed his diet to get him the nutrients he needs(heck IM adding shrimp, just in case! and putting him on VC)
I got him to workout at a gym, both cardio and weights, he's lost a great deal of fat.. so I'm outta ideas.
Im rehasing old ones, like maybe he is fat)(skinnyfat) and Im getting his bodyfat tested, to work on controling his E2
hells bells, Im even online gettting suggestions that his e2 is high, Test is low because he doesnt have enough iodine/posstasium, so I'm getting him to eat shrimp with his eggs and veggies!


so what is the solution then?
You say OMG TRT IS A SYMTOM < FIND THE REAL ISSUE
what's the real issue? oh,he's old...so what do I do?
test him for stuff that is already in range? or give him more pills?(that he has a hard time taking?) change his diet, which is already pretty solid?

Im not dead set on TRT, like you say, Im looking for a solution and TRT does seem the best option, after controlling his Estradiol IF he needs it;
recall I don't know his bodyfat level, he might be skinny-fat and need to shed some fat, I know first hand(as I said) losing bodyfat can both lower E2 and raise total T

so Im unclear, what is your suggestion?(if any)? O
you gave me a lot of vague "stuff" about risks of TRT, and guess what., those studies are about men who arent doing what my dad does.

eat a healthy diet(from what everyone sees)
exercises 4-6 days week, has good lipids,

and Im recall I've said many times now, the 1st step is managing his high estradiol. then look at his Total T.
-high e2 is NOT usually managed by men on HRT/TRT and why problems happen.
case in point, recall my Dad was ON TRT, without any testing.... that's what MDs do, they write scripts of androgel/transdermal because a fat guy sits in their office complaining he can't get it up, he feels run down, etc
so MD gives them TRT with no testing
I know this from my Dad's experience and from other forums about HRT/TRT!

I'm not sure if you have any experience with TRT/HRT, but I've friends who do it and they are young, so they see no issues with "blast and cruise", where they get their testosterone up over 1000 and they take HCG to prevent ball shrinkage, and since they are lean they MIGHT not have to worry about e2. but they dont test and they don't care!
so do you really think those on TRT are doing it properly or are well tested? Why do you think that?

you keep saying that I'm dead set on TRT, which is wrong, as I give you studies to support how it fixes his issues, yet you rebuttal with vague "risks"
This is a last step, Ive done other steps before
I've fixed his diet to get him the nutrients he needs(heck IM adding shrimp, just in case! and putting him on VC)
I got him to workout at a gym, both cardio and weights, he's lost a great deal of fat.. so I'm outta ideas.
Im rehasing old ones, like maybe he is fat)(skinnyfat) and Im getting his bodyfat tested, to work on controling his E2
hells bells, Im even online gettting suggestions that his e2 is high, Test is low because he doesnt have enough iodine/posstasium, so I'm getting him to eat shrimp with his eggs and veggies!


so what is the solution then?
You say OMG TRT IS A SYMTOM < FIND THE REAL ISSUE
what's the real issue? oh,he's old...so what do I do?
test him for stuff that is already in range? or give him more pills?(that he has a hard time taking?) change his diet, which is already pretty solid?

Im not dead set on TRT, like you say, Im looking for a solution and TRT does seem the best option, after controlling his Estradiol IF he needs it;
recall I don't know his bodyfat level, he might be skinny-fat and need to shed some fat, I know first hand(as I said) losing bodyfat can both lower E2 and raise total T

so Im unclear, what is your suggestion?(if any)?