To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#1  Post by lolex » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:31 pm

I had an angiogram yesterday as a result of an abnormal stress echocardiogram some four months ago. There were delays, partially due to me putting ‘it’ off. I’ve been on Pauling Therapy for sixteen weeks and have not missed a dose of my 4 x day 5gm Vit C, 1.5gm L-Lysine and 0.5gm Proline. I guess I hoped this would lead to better results.... maybe as I continued with 10-15 cigarettes a day that had an effect. I don’t know. I stopped completely a week before the angiogram... and will not waver now.

The results were 80% blockage in my LAD and in my RCA there was a lot of mid segment diffuse plaque with a 90-95% blockage at the proximal end (whatever that is).

My options per my Cardiologist (who is very highly respected here in Australia are:
(a) stents,
(b) a double by-pass, or
(c) do nothing and hope that PT clears the blockages before a major adverse event occurs. My Cardiologist promised me that PT would not clear these blockages.

The Cardiologist seemed more concerned with the LAD than the RCA, that’s the impression I have, I could be wrong... and I’m not sure why that would be.

My initial thoughts were to get the by-pass done while I’m still relatively young (64) because that is the option with probably the best long term outcomes. But probably with the highest risks and disruption to my life/work.

Then I figured that stenting is relatively quick and easy with low risk and leaves By-pass as a fall back option if there’s significant restenosis. And I can continue with PT to prevent this and clear remaining plaque.

It sounds like the blockages are quite high risk, so I’m reluctant to rely on PT alone, though I’d very much like to.

Just one more thing, I am totally asymptomatic. No angina, no breathlessness, no chest or other pain. I had the original stress echo done at my Doctors orders to get a medical certificate required to join a gym.

It’s a tough one.

Any advice from Johnwen, Owen and others who have knowledge /experience in this will be much appreciated.

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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:40 pm

I too am interested in johnwen's thoughts especially.

16 weeks (or 4 months) at what, 20,000 mg of vitamin C daily? (What kind of vitamin C? Are you taking with anything else, i.e. fiber??) That should be good enough except for calcified blockages.. which may require up to a year to resolve after adding vitamin K. (In our experience.)

The problems with stents is that they are irreversible and in most people, the "blockages" reappear with a vengeance. Restenosis. And never consider a radiated stent or even a medicated stent - trying to kill your endothelium to keep it from trying to heal itself..

The bypass is a life saving operation, especially in advanced atherosclerosis and "unstable" plaques as Levy describes in STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER..

But you have no symptoms...

If it were me... I would give vitamin C/lysine + proline, Vitamin K, Coq10, magnesium, vitamin E (lots of good vitamin E) and Pauling's other recommendations more time and refuse all intervention save some life threatening event or condition. I would revist what I am doing as you just might be one of those people (< 2%) who need closer to the30,000 mg of vitamin C daily (rather than 20,000 mg). Do you know your bowel tolerance?

Do you have dental work that could be producing toxicity? root canals?
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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#3  Post by purposefirst » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:49 pm

lolex,
so I’m reluctant to rely on PT alone,

1) In a previous post you mentioned that you reduced your cigarettes to 10/day. That is 10 too many. For 25 years I smoked 2 packs/day. In 1990 I began to get chest pain. Since there was a history of fatal heart attacks in both sides of my family I took the warning seriously. I quit smoking totally and the chest pain went away.

2) In 1999 (at age 57) I had a minor heart attack (and had no fore-warning). In response I took NO MEDS. Instead I immediately went on a crash diet and lost 20 lbs, took a few supplements (at the time I was influenced by the LIE that too much vitamin C can cause kidney stones, so took only a small amount of C). I paid attention to proper nutrition. And I did a LOT of aerobic exercise using a rowing machine. I was able to return to my work as an arborist/tree-climber (very strenuous work).
So,
-- Pay attention to nutrition but DO NOT OVER-EAT!
-- Daily aerobic exercise is very important!

3) Follow Owen's advise about various nutritional supplements. Lots of good advice in this forum about supplements.

(By the way, the damage from my heart attack in 1999 still shows up on my EKG, but I continued to do tree work until a year ago, retiring at age 71.)

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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#4  Post by lolex » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:40 pm

Thanks Owen and great respect to you Mr Tree-Climber ! (I've never done it but have watched enthralled many times).

I found this on the Harvard Medical School site that seems to support the 'don't stent, stay the course with PT' view.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/family-health-guide/updates/medication-vs-stents-for-heart-disease-treatment

Medication vs. stents for heart disease treatment

What’s the best way to “fix” a narrowed coronary artery? That question was the crux of a multimillion-dollar trial dubbed COURAGE, short for Clinical Outcomes Utilizing Revascularization and Aggressive Drug Evaluation. Its results, presented in the spring of 2007, stunned some doctors and seemed to shock the media, but we hope they won’t come as a surprise to readers: For people with stable coronary artery disease (clogged arteries nourishing the heart), artery-opening angioplasty was no better than medications and lifestyle changes at preventing future heart attacks or strokes, nor did it extend life.

The media tended to play up the COURAGE results, which were presented at the American College of Cardiology’s annual meeting in March, as a David slays Goliath story. But it wasn’t that at all.

Before going any further, it’s important to stress that this trial compared angioplasty and medical therapy only for stable angina (chest pain on exertion) or narrowed coronary arteries that don’t cause any symptoms. For a sudden blockage of a coronary artery, emergency artery-opening balloon angioplasty followed by the placement of a stent is the best remedy around.

Direct comparison

The COURAGE trial signed up 2,287 volunteers, all of whom had at least one coronary artery severely narrowed by cholesterol-filled plaque. They also had clear evidence of limited blood flow to part of the heart (ischemia), either chest pain or alarming signs on an electrocardiogram or stress test. Half were randomly assigned to angioplasty plus a stent with state-of-the-art follow-up care. The other half had optimal medical therapy — drugs to ease or prevent angina, to protect the heart and blood vessels, and in some cases to boost protective HDL. Exercise and healthful eating were also stressed.

After an average follow-up of four and a half years, the two groups were remarkably similar. Getting angioplasty and a stent to hold open a narrowed artery didn’t offer any extra protection against a heart attack, stroke, hospitalization for acute coronary syndrome (the umbrella for heart attack and unstable angina), or premature death.

The only big differences were in freedom from angina and the need for follow-up procedures. After one year, 66% of those who underwent angioplasty were free from angina, compared with 58% of those on medical therapy. By five years, though, there was no difference, with about 73% of both groups reporting no angina.

In follow-up procedures, about 20% of those who initially underwent angioplasty needed a repeat angioplasty or bypass surgery, while 31% of those who started on medical therapy eventually needed to have angioplasty or bypass surgery.

COURAGE results

In the COURAGE trial, angioplasty was no better than medical therapy for preventing later cardiovascular problems.

<There's a table here that doesn't cut and paste>

Stents for pain, not protection

The key lesson from COURAGE is that people with stable angina or a narrowed coronary artery have choices. These problems aren’t ticking time bombs that must be fixed right away, especially if you feel fine.

There are only two reasons for undergoing any treatment: to feel better or to live longer. If you aren’t having chest pain or other symptoms, angioplasty to open a narrowed artery can’t make you feel any better. And the results of COURAGE and earlier studies show it won’t help you live any longer.

Having one plaque big enough to limit blood flow usually means others are lurking nearby. Squash it against the wall of a coronary artery with a stent, and others will pop up elsewhere, like a game of arterial Whac-a-Mole. Fighting atherosclerosis means attacking the disease on all fronts: with exercise and healthful eating; medications that stabilize plaque, hinder blood clots from forming in the heart’s arteries, and prevent harmful changes in the shape of the heart; and efforts to control blood pressure and cholesterol.

Making choices

If you have chronic angina, it’s worth giving medical therapy the old college try. One of the findings from COURAGE that surprised even researchers was how effective medical therapy was at relieving angina and improving quality of life. You might be surprised at how well exercise, a better diet, and medications can make you feel. If, after six months to a year, your angina is still bothering you or keeping you from doing activities you enjoy, angio-plasty or bypass surgery are reasonable next steps.

June 2007 update

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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:42 pm

Lolex:
First The Anatomy Lesson.
I do have a reason for the long description.

The right coronary artery (RCA) and the left (LCA) start at the base of the aorta (AKA sinus of valsalva) in 70% of people which is the main pipe to the whole body.
When the heart squeezes (systole) the aortic valve which is located inside the sinus of valsalva closes off the openings (ostium) of the LCA and the RCA. When the Ventricles relax (diastole) The Aortic valve closes and retrograde blood flow from the aorta fills the LCA and RCA which nourish the heart.

The Proximal (1st part closest to the aorta) area of the LCA is where the Lad T’s into it. The proximal portion of the RCA is about the first 1/3 or the distance from the valsalva to the right medial 1.

Now if you notice on your report it appears all the build up is in the first 1/3rd of both arteries and on the left side it is messing up the lad. Which is a common occurrence. However since both L&R are involved in the proximal portion this throws up a red flag to me. Given your age of 64 and no angina with a 80% blockage in the LAD. I suspect you may have an aortic valve problem also. Given no immediate problems! I would talk to your doc about having an echocardiogram done with emphasis on the aortic valve before making any plans on what to do.

Here’s the skinny on your options. Placing a medicated Stent now at 64 will give you about 5 years tops on it. So you’d be looking at bypass surgery at 69 years old. Them five years are bummers to begin with! I know I‘m half way thru them!! Then also there is survival rate which like everything else drops like a rock with every additional year.

Although were looking at a 80% block in what is known as the WIDOW MAKER!! At 80% in the LAD! Your in the RED zone and complete blockage is sudden and lot’s of times without warning!

Another thing to talk to your doc about is if you opt to have your chest cracked open, is if they can use any of your arteries usually the mammary arteries for the bypass.
Then ask him if you do opt for bypass if he can arrange for respiratory therapy well your in recovery. Collapsing the lungs during surgery of a smoker or recent ex smoker tends to set off a onslaught of mucus secretion which can easily turn complicated. RT is a no brainer in my opinion in this situation.

What you can do now to make your experience good.
Stay on Pauling therapy up to the day you go in and request the doc also add 1000mg of V-C to your list of meds well in the hospital. Cq10-200mg every day till and after! B-12 1000mcg and folic acid 800mcg. Don’t stop any of these until you go in.

Good luck and remember what I said 80% LAD blockage your walking on thin ice if something don’t feel right, like dizzy spells, stomach upset that seems to come or go, sudden tiredness, arm or shoulder cramps that feel deep inside, or even if your thoughts get muddled, get in and get it checked out.

Of course my hopes are that there is a reversal! It’s happened before perhaps you’ll be blessed!

Hope this helps and Good Luck!
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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#6  Post by lolex » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:02 pm

Thankyou very much, John, for your detailed response to me post about by angiogram results. It's very much appreciated. My GP (MD) is quite good, but he often seems to lack depth in knowledge or experience, so your observations are very valuable to me.

You say in your reply "RT is a no brainer in my opinion in this situation."

What is RT please??

I presume it's an acronym for a bypass (Right Transplant??) Is that right?

Thanks again....

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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#7  Post by Johnwen » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:10 pm

Respiratory therapy
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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:28 pm

purposefirst wrote:(By the way, the damage from my heart attack in 1999 still shows up on my EKG, but I continued to do tree work until a year ago, retiring at age 71.)\


And now for my next trick.

Try 400 to 2000 iu of the original Unique-E vitamin E formula from A.C. Grace. (The late owner who preserved the manufacturing process because he believed this product saved his life, recommended 2000 iu in the a.m. 5 , 400 IU Uniqu-E pills)

After six months, have your EKG taken and specifically ask if it still "shows up" and please let us know.

And yes, we expect the abnormality to be gone.

Not bad advice for the original poster either.
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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#9  Post by purposefirst » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:15 pm

Thanks, Owen!

As it happens, due to information in this forum, last month I began using Unique E mixed tocopherols (had been using another brand of E), plus Unique E tocotrienols. I've been doing 400 (sometimes 800) IU/day of the tocopherols. I'm hesitant to go above that amount because I've read on various sites that more than 400 IU/day of E can have harmful effects.

I should add that I have more going on with the heart than just atherosclerosis. In 1998 I was diagnosed as having sleep apnea. The CPAP machine did not work for me, so for many years I've been using an oral "TAP" device that holds to lower jaw forward to enable keeping the throat open. I works MOST of the time, but occasionally my head seems to get into a position in which I get apnea anyway. I know I've had an episode when I wake up with a headache and notice heart pain before I even get out of bed. I've been taking brain supplements for years to offset/repair any effects of the apnea, which seem to work as my IQ seems to be as good as it used to be (I think). But I don't know what effect the apnea has had in regard to my abnormal EKGs.

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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:09 pm

purposefirst wrote:Thanks, Owen!

As it happens, due to information in this forum, last month I began using Unique E mixed tocopherols (had been using another brand of E), plus Unique E tocotrienols. I've been doing 400 (sometimes 800) IU/day of the tocopherols. I'm hesitant to go above that amount because I've read on various sites that more than 400 IU/day of E can have harmful effects.



Is there polite way to say Baloney! :evil: (There are no harmful effects, but people may experience unpleasant affects, but usually this is because the material in inferior Vitamin E products has gone rancid. In fact this is the standard test for Unique-E - you can crack the capsule and verify the contents are not rancid.

I take that back, there are harmful effects to 2000 iu of Uniqu-E. My mistake! The harmful effect is large and aimed at the medical profession, big Pharma and the hospital industry, and esp at the Cardiologist Pocketbook, so yes there would certainly be a harmful effects to you taking 2000 iu of Unique-E!

And recently I posted the link to a large WHO study showing that the most critical factor in heart attack was not high cholesterol or high blood pressure, the most predictive factor was low blood levels of vitamin E.
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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#11  Post by purposefirst » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:31 pm

There are no harmful effects, but people may experience unpleasant affects, but usually this is because the material in inferior Vitamin E products has gone rancid.

And recently I posted the link to a large WHO study showing that the most critical factor in heart attack was not high cholesterol or high blood pressure, the most predictive factor was low blood levels of vitamin E.

Wow, two points good to know! Thanks Owen, for helping us to sort through the misinformation!!!
I will increase my intake of Unique E.

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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:08 am

For the record, here is the link to the large World Health Org. WHO study that showed the importance of low serum vitamin E and the incidence of heart attack. This is very interesting because the doctors who run these studies are trained to believe that high cholesterol and/or high blood pressure are more predictive, yet they found this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1985406

Am J Clin Nutr. 1991 Jan;53(1 Suppl):326S-334S.
Inverse correlation between plasma vitamin E and mortality from ischemic heart disease in cross-cultural epidemiology.
Gey KF1, Puska P, Jordan P, Moser UK.
Author information
Abstract
Essential antioxidants were determined in plasma of middle-aged men representing 16 European study populations, which differed sixfold in age-specific mortality from ischemic heart disease (IHD).

In 12 populations with "common" plasma cholesterol (5.7-6.2 mmol/L) and blood pressure, both classical risk factors lacked significant correlations to IHD mortality, whereas absolute levels of vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) showed a strong inverse correlation (r2 = 0.63, P = 0.002).

Evaluating all populations, cholesterol and diastolic blood pressure were moderately associated, but their correlation was inferior to that of vitamin E. In stepwise regression and multiple regression analysis, mortality was predictable to 62% by lipid-standardized vitamin E, to 79% by vitamin E and cholesterol, to 83% after inclusion of lipid-standardized vitamin A (retinol), and to 87% by all the above parameters plus blood pressure. Thus, in the present study the cross-cultural differences of IDH mortality are primarily attributable to plasma status of vitamin E, which might have protective functions.
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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#13  Post by 89826 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:36 am

ofonorow wrote:
purposefirst wrote:(By the way, the damage from my heart attack in 1999 still shows up on my EKG, but I continued to do tree work until a year ago, retiring at age 71.)\


And now for my next trick.

Try 400 to 2000 iu of the original Unique-E vitamin E formula from A.C. Grace. (The late owner who preserved the manufacturing process because he believed this product saved his life, recommended 2000 iu in the a.m. 5 , 400 IU Uniqu-E pills)

After six months, have your EKG taken and specifically ask if it still "shows up" and please let us know.

And yes, we expect the abnormality to be gone.

Not bad advice for the original poster either.


Owen, please elaborate on how vitamin E can (help) heal heart muscle damaged by a heart attack. Many thanks, Ed

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Re: To Stent, By-Pass or Risk All on PT ???

Post Number:#14  Post by ofonorow » Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:34 am

Good question, and this effect has only been noticed in one vitamin E product, to my knowledge - the original Unique-E from A. C Grace (with mixed tocopherols).

I have told this story before, a long time ago I answered the phone and I would chat with many alternative doctors from around the world. One day, after one of my articles had been published in the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, I got a call from a physician asking me why , if Pauling was correct about vitamin C, did his patients EKG's return normal after giving them Unique-E?

Later on the same day, from a different part of the country, I got virtually the same story from another alt. doc who had noticed EKG's returning to normal on Unique-E from A. C. Grace.

After the second call I figured the universe was trying to tell me something.

Shortly after that, one of the "stars" (unfortunately) in my book, Carol Smith, had one of her relapses. A heart attack after stopping vitamin C/lysine for about six months. (She felt cured). Her EKGs were bad, and I told her what I learned about Unique-E, the dosage, etc. and suggested she not only restart Pauling's therapy, but add Unique-E (2000 iu)

Some time later she had another EKG - and was told the results were "normal" so we have posted her before/after EKGs, although I personally cannot read them. http://internetwks.com/carolsmith/
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