Good book on vitamin K, heart disease, and osteoporosis

[gmdodaro]

I've seen several discussions on this forum of the role of vitamin K in heart disease. Today I got a book advertisement from Amazon and purchased Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox: How a Little-Known Vitamin Could Save Your Life
So far it is good reading. http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calciu ... WK?ie=UTF8

[blade]

I've seen several discussions on this forum of the role of vitamin K in heart disease. Today I got a book advertisement from Amazon and purchased Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox: How a Little-Known Vitamin Could Save Your Life
So far it is good reading. http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calciu ... WK?ie=UTF8

recommendations for K2?
I thought eating enough veggies(kale/spinach) was good enough? Im starting on Life Extension®'s Super K asap to recommendation by :

Over time, they may or may not accumulate calcium, used to be called arteriosclerosis, and in our experience the only way to resolve calcified (or stiff) arteries is to add vitamin K e.g. Super-K pill from LEF.ORG to the regimen.

[jimmylesante]

recommendations for K2?
I thought eating enough veggies(kale/spinach) was good enough?

Eating veggies gives you vitamin K1 which in theory; provided you have the right gut flora would be changed to k2 by your gut flora.

[gmdodaro]

This book is a wealth of information about the various forms of vitamin K. K1 is the kind you get from leafy greens, and this is what is needed for blood to clot. Warfarin, Coumadin, interrupts recycling of K1, so one can take K2 even when taking Warfarin and have the other benefits of K2, including prevention and reversal of coronary calcium and delivery of calcium to the bones, which prevents or reverses osteoprorosis and osteopenia.

The important distinctions are between K1 and the two main types of K2, MK4 and MK7. MK4 and MK7 do not come from leafy greens but from fat of animal products such as butter from green grass grazing cattle and eggs from free range chickens. Few people get enough K2 because most domestic animals are now fed grains and medicated mash instead of what they would ingest from their normal feeding patterns.

There are ways to get enough vitamin K2 from food, but it takes a lot of effort to find things like cheese and butter from grass fed cattle, or natto, a soy product more available in Japan.

For my part, it looks like supplementation with MK4 and MK7 are the way to go. The book cites cases of aortic stenosis that were improved dramatically by MK4 and MK7. Both calcification of arteries and osteoporosis result from deficiencies of vitamin K2. The experiences of many on this forum have shown that improved cardiac function, after Pauling therapy with vitamin C, still does not reduce coronary calcium. Vitamin K2 appears to be a way to reduce calcification of the arteries. The dosages required are much higher than most supplements you'll find in health food stores. The K supplement available on this web site contains 25 mg of MK4 and a good dose of MK7: http://www.k-vitamins.com/. Two of those capsules per day would be roughly the therapeutic dosage used in some of the research sited in the book. MK4 is available quite a bit cheaper and if taken at intervals over the day should work.

[blade]

This book is a wealth of information about the various forms of vitamin K. K1 is the kind you get from leafy greens, and this is what is needed for blood to clot. Warfarin, Coumadin, interrupts recycling of K1, so one can take K2 even when taking Warfarin and have the other benefits of K2, including prevention and reversal of coronary calcium and delivery of calcium to the bones, which prevents or reverses osteoprorosis and osteopenia.

The important distinctions are between K1 and the two main types of K2, MK4 and MK7. MK4 and MK7 do not come from leafy greens but from fat of animal products such as butter from green grass grazing cattle and eggs from free range chickens. Few people get enough K2 because most domestic animals are now fed grains and medicated mash instead of what they would ingest from their normal feeding patterns.

There are ways to get enough vitamin K2 from food, but it takes a lot of effort to find things like cheese and butter from grass fed cattle, or natto, a soy product more available in Japan.

For my part, it looks like supplementation with MK4 and MK7 are the way to go. The book cites cases of aortic stenosis that were improved dramatically by MK4 and MK7. Both calcification of arteries and osteoporosis result from deficiencies of vitamin K2. The experiences of many on this forum have shown that improved cardiac function, after Pauling therapy with vitamin C, still does not reduce coronary calcium. Vitamin K2 appears to be a way to reduce calcification of the arteries. The dosages required are much higher than most supplements you'll find in health food stores. The K supplement available on this web site contains 25 mg of MK4 and a good dose of MK7: http://www.k-vitamins.com/. Two of those capsules per day would be roughly the therapeutic dosage used in some of the research sited in the book. MK4 is available quite a bit cheaper and if taken at intervals over the day should work.

so when ofonorow says to "vitamin K e.g. Super-K pill from LEF.ORG to the regimen.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11592
he isnt right?
As Super-K only gets you 1000mcg/1miligram or that gets you only from what you say," get 25mg MK4, by taking Koncentrated
Super K with Advanced K2 Complex has 1000mcg Vit K2 or about 25 SuperK pills?

I thought progress in reducing coronary calcium was attained from SuperK.?

but You are saying to reduce coronary calcium, you must supplement, you cannot get enough K2 from food?
thanks
25 of these
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements ... K2-Complex
are equal to one of these?
http://www.k-vitamins.com/

[ofonorow]

Again, this is the vitamin C foundation.... We are not claiming to be experts in vitamin K, only enthused by its anti calcification and anti-aging properties.

For the record, when my friend Bill Decker added vitamin K to his diet - he got it from a health store and it was only a few hundred micrograms - and yet, his arterial stiffness and blood pressure both dropped into normal range after one year. (This was a lot lower dosage than he would have in the LEF Super-K). This gives me some confidence that even low dosages can have a mighty effect.

I know that Dr. Levy's new book DEATH BY CALCIUM recommends high levels of various forms of vitamin K2, and as per our attitude to other vitamins, we have no objection what-so-ever to these dosages. And we hope people will report their experiences here.

But in the Life Extension meta analysis and the studies I have read, it is not clear cut that one form is that much better than the other for the anti-calcification effect. There are studies showing that K1 has the anti-soft tissue calcification effect (and it may very well be that it is because of the conversion in the gut to K2 as suggested).

So I recommend Super-K because of the mixture, relatively high dosage compared to vitamin K products in vitamin stores, and because my wife (and I) have no evidence of caclium in our arteries. Her recent scan (age 60) was zero. We take one Super-K
daily.

[gmdodaro]

I guess I'll be the Guinea Pig. My coronary calcium is in a range that puts me at risk for heart attack or stroke, a score that makes me the biological equivalent of a man in his 80s, even though I'm only 65. I found out that I have heart disease three years ago and since then the calcium score doubled from 255 to 555.
I'm taking vitamin K from http://www.k-vitamins.com/ , which has 25 mg of MK4 and .5 mg of MK7. In addition to this I've started taking 5 mg doses of cheaper MK4 three or four times a day. My wife found a source of butter from grass fed cows.
I don't want to do the electron beam tomography (EBT) very often, so it may be a while before I can put a number on any progress. There are other ways to monitor. I'm watching.

[blade]

If you find a good way - let us know.

There used to be a combination blood pressure machine/laptop called CardioVision that measured arterial stiffness with a series of rapid blood pressure measurements. I have no idea whether this machine is currently available. (It was the test that led us to our personal discovery of the importance of vitamin K in reducing arterial stiffness.)

Apparently, ultrasounds are so good these days that plaques - and their disappearance - can be accurately monitored. There have even been suggestions that we offer ultrasound machines so that our customers can "prove" the benefit of Pauling's therapy.

Perhaps the answer is to design a study around a practice who is willing to use ultrasound for this purpose?

Definitely will let everyone know if I find a cheap way to measure arterial stiffness
I looked for Cardio vision around my area and found this:
http://www.devicewatch.org/reports/cardiovision.shtml
Several studies have examined the impact of various factors on arterial elasticity and whether arterial stiffness is an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease. So far, no clinical studies have demonstrated that the CardoVision or any similar device can usefully guide patient management and improve clinical outcomes. Even worse, a study of adults who had five consecutive measurements taken five minutes apart on a single day and repeated about five months later demonstrated that CardioVision measurements varied too much to be trustworthy [3].

For these reasons, leading medical professional organizations do not recommend arterial flexibility tests for cardiovascular disease assessment and insurance companies regard them as experimental and don't knowingly pay for their use [4].
FDA Status

I couldnt find a reason for what I bolded, even if cardiovision doesnt work, as that "study" suggests, why not find another way to measure arterial stiffness?>

Again, this is the vitamin C foundation.... We are not claiming to be experts in vitamin K, only enthused by its anti calcification and anti-aging properties.

For the record, when my friend Bill Decker added vitamin K to his diet - he got it from a health store and it was only a few hundred micrograms - and yet, his arterial stiffness and blood pressure both dropped into normal range after one year. (This was a lot lower dosage than he would have in the LEF Super-K). This gives me some confidence that even low dosages can have a mighty effect.

I know that Dr. Levy's new book DEATH BY CALCIUM recommends high levels of various forms of vitamin K2, and as per our attitude to other vitamins, we have no objection what-so-ever to these dosages. And we hope people will report their experiences here.

But in the Life Extension meta analysis and the studies I have read, it is not clear cut that one form is that much better than the other for the anti-calcification effect. There are studies showing that K1 has the anti-soft tissue calcification effect (and it may very well be that it is because of the conversion in the gut to K2 as suggested).

So I recommend Super-K because of the mixture, relatively high dosage compared to vitamin K products in vitamin stores, and because my wife (and I) have no evidence of caclium in our arteries. Her recent scan (age 60) was zero. We take one Super-K
daily.

I understand what you are saying.
What scan did you and your wife have to determine no calcium in your arteries?
I am curious to get this for my parents, as my Dad isnt "Fat", he has low cholestrol)(total 114) which might be good, BUT Dr davis (wheat belly)
introduced the "Rule of 60" which is basically to get your
1. LDL < 60
2. HDL > 60
3. Triglycerides < 60
and my Dad is not below/above 60...and he has high e2, low T, A-fib, so I worry

Dr. Esselstyn's (Forks Over knives) says
drop your total cholesterol below 150 and LDL less than 80.--which my dad has done.

Both guys are big proponents of eating food(plants) that increase nitric oxide in the blood.

Which makes sense, as a plant diet, inadvertently gives a person move Vitamin C...so maybe the vitamin C is the key, BUT the other issues, (testosterone/estrogen/bodyfat/working out/) play a big role also.
I'd like to see a morbidly obese person who takes 15+grams vitamin C/lysine/vitamin K and is shown to have no stiffness in his arteries.


http://www.newlinemedical.com/CardioVision.html
The site that sells cardiovision has studies that prove it works.

Recently, mom had an X-ray of her neck/shoulder for a some other reason and the MD saw a bit of plaque in her carotid, he told her it was nothing to worry about, I gave her some of my stash of Vit C and lysine(she won't take niacin) but why not use X-rays to support Pauling therapy? Esselstyn states that his patients have cleared out between 10-30% of their arterial plaque just through following his dietary advice. I'm not sure how this is measured. I'll look into it when I have time.

[purposefirst]

My experience with vitamin K may be helpful to others.

To set the stage: I have been treating my atherosclerosis orthomolecularly for 13 months now. In the beginning I was experiencing some degree of angina pain (upper left chest pain) when walking, and sometimes some pain even when sitting. As I worked my regimen (which soon included regular aerobic exercise) the chest/angina pain gradually improved, but then seemed to plateau and remain plateaued from July through September. (Incidentally, for at least 6 months I had been using MK7, 180 mcg/day, as part of the regimen.)

During my regular aerobic exercise routine I always go the point where I feel a degree of angina pain. I believe the lessening of the degree of such pain over time, and the ability to increase exercise without that pain, to be a real indication of progress against plaque/calcification. (It's a way to tell if you are improving without a blood test.)

In September I added Thorne liguid K2 (MK4) and took a LOT -- 45 mg/day in 3 divided doses. Within a few weeks I broke away from the plateau as I could see definite improvement in angina pain. In October I replaced the MK7 I had been taking all along with Life Extension's Super K, one gel/day. The improvement in reduced chest pain has continued on to the present. My sense is that it is largely due to the Thorne product!

Recently I reduced the Thorne to 30 mg/day, and the Super K to one gel every other day. (Don't want to overdo it. Can always increase again if needed.)

[ofonorow]

Thank you purposefirst for the report of your personal experiments.

In answer to,

What scan did you and your wife have to determine no calcium in your arteries?

Here are scans results from my wife's Calcium Scan test (ordered through an orthodox doctor, our standard health insurance.)

http://paulingtherapy.com/images/CalciumScore1.pdf

http://paulingtherapy.com/images/CalciumScore2.pdf

In my case, in the hospital, I had a Thalluim Stress Test, a measure of blockage in my heart - not of blockage in arteries outside the heart. As reported at this forum, my entire heart "lit up". (Blockages are indicated by dark sections during the test). The cardiologist told me to "come back in 20 years" for a retest

As far as the negative comments about CardioVision, remember where the money comes from. For example, statin drugs which are touted to help with heart disease. If these drugs could reduce arterial stiffness, these devices would be highly touted, not denigrated.

[blade]

As far as the negative comments about CardioVision, remember where the money comes from. For example, statin drugs which are touted to help with heart disease. If these drugs could reduce arterial stiffness, these devices would be highly touted, not denigrated.

That is exactly what I though about the negative comments about cardiovision.,
Chris Rock summed it up nicely when he said,"There ain't no money in the cure. The money's in the medicine. That's how you get paid"
http://moreintelligentlife.com/blog/cor ... chris-rock

[blade]

My experience with vitamin K may be helpful to others.

To set the stage: I have been treating my atherosclerosis orthomolecularly for 13 months now. In the beginning I was experiencing some degree of angina pain (upper left chest pain) when walking, and sometimes some pain even when sitting. As I worked my regimen (which soon included regular aerobic exercise) the chest/angina pain gradually improved, but then seemed to plateau and remain plateaued from July through September. (Incidentally, for at least 6 months I had been using MK7, 180 mcg/day, as part of the regimen.)

During my regular aerobic exercise routine I always go the point where I feel a degree of angina pain. I believe the lessening of the degree of such pain over time, and the ability to increase exercise without that pain, to be a real indication of progress against plaque/calcification. (It's a way to tell if you are improving without a blood test.)

In September I added Thorne liguid K2 (MK4) and took a LOT -- 45 mg/day in 3 divided doses. Within a few weeks I broke away from the plateau as I could see definite improvement in angina pain. In October I replaced the MK7 I had been taking all along with Life Extension's Super K, one gel/day. The improvement in reduced chest pain has continued on to the present. My sense is that it is largely due to the Thorne product!

Recently I reduced the Thorne to 30 mg/day, and the Super K to one gel every other day. (Don't want to overdo it. Can always increase again if needed.)

purposefirst, thank you for your post, I am getting some SuperK and will likely get Thorne as well.
A few questions please"

What do you mean by," treating my atherosclerosis orthomolecularly for 13 months now."?
You have been doing PT? How many grams of VitC/lysine? Was that Bowel Tolerance?>
Have you changed your diet? started eating more fruit/veggies
Has your body composition changed? Loss of body fat?
have your labs changed? better cholesterol numbers? low Triglycerides? low HS-CRP?>
Started a weight lifting/cardio routine?

Or did you just add:Thorne's Vitamin K2 Liquid 1 oz?
http://www.vitaminsforus.com/trn70013.html

I am all about Pauling Therapy(PT) and learning about Vit Ks role in calcium metabolism should help me. I appreciate your effort, I'm very doubtful that PT even with K added is going to fix the whole picture.

I think you must change your lifestyle and your body(ie not have fat) to reduce chance of cancer/CVD, etc like Campell/Esselstyn/Dr. Ignarro talk about, and like this survey suggests
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530540
and why I think why the Mediterranean diet is ranked as the best diet to help lower Heart diseae. A diet that focuses on fruit/veggie has a lot more vitC than one without.
http://health.usnews.com/best-diet/mediterranean-diet

[purposefirst]

Blade asked:

What do you mean by," treating my atherosclerosis orthomolecularly for 13 months now."?

I mean treating with nutritional supplements and no drugs. Also attention to diet, plus exercise.

You have been doing PT? How many grams of VitC/lysine? Was that Bowel Tolerance?

I got onto Pauling Therapy in August. I had already been taking fairly large doses of C, but not up to BT, and no lysine until August. In August I went to up to 12 gms/day of C, which is my BT, plus 6 gms of lysine. I should mention that I also do a slew of other supplements. Dr. Levy lists a bunch of supplements in his book, Stop America's #1 Killer, pages 253-254. I take practically everything on his list, plus more.

Have you changed your diet? started eating more fruit/veggies

Absolutely!! I immediately quit muffins, potato chips, sugar, coffee. Soon I quit all wheat products and grains that were not gluten free. I eat broccoli and mixed vegies every day. Also certain fruits and lots of nuts daily, 2-3 whole eggs daily, "natural" chicken most days, and quality sardines weekly.

Has your body composition changed? Loss of body fat?

Yep. I lost 23 lbs. I'm currently very trim, virtually no excess fat.

have your labs changed? better cholesterol numbers? low Triglycerides? low HS-CRP?>

I've had only 2 comprehensive sets of blood test so far, the second on Sept 5th. The numbers are improving, most are now good, hsCRP is very good. EXCEPT, I'm apparently one of those individuals who has inherited very high lipoprotein(a) -- mine was 95 (mass) in Sept. That is a major risk indicator. I'll test again in 2 months.

Started a weight lifting/cardio routine?

Absolutely, and fairly intense for an old man (72). Start each day with a brisk 30 minute walk. Every second evening I do aerobics for 20-40 minutes intense enough to cause heavy breathing throughout, and once or twice a week I add some weightlifting after the aerobics for a total one hour work-out. The weightlifting I do in my bathroom heated to 100 degrees F. Helps to sweat out some toxins.

I'm very doubtful that PT even with K added is going to fix the whole picture.

As you can see I'm doing much more than C, lysine, and K (although those components are critical). I believe that with sufficient study, effort and discipline, atherosclerosis/calcified plaque, is fixable! I think I have 6-12 months to go before getting another nuclear scan/stress test to indicate I'm "cured."

[blade]

As you can see I'm doing much more than C, lysine, and K (although those components are critical). I believe that with sufficient study, effort and discipline, atherosclerosis/calcified plaque, is fixable! I think I have 6-12 months to go before getting another nuclear scan/stress test to indicate I'm "cured."

thanks for the response
I am on board with what you are doing. I hope I am as healthy as you in ~35 yrs.

I am getting "Practicing Medicine Without A License?" on the 19th, I'll read it and have more issues.
Right now, I'm working to formulate a general plan for anyone to get healthy.
Just some numbers and some generalized info, so I won't have to say, " I read book Z and I do/take what it says!"
I can give concrete info so someone can go do something.
like:
-get Testostrone to 500-1200ng.dl
estradiol 20-30pg/dl
T/E ratio-30-50
total cholestrol to <150
BMI < 25 and or <15% bodyfat

eat enough protein
walk daily
lift weights
don't eat man-made foods

get enough sleep
take 6+ grams of vit C/ a day
and other things so people can look at it and know what to do
I want to put references at the bottom so people can determine more details and why to do something
Im still working on BMI 25/15% Bf, so I'm dieting and generally always hungry
I guess I should eat more spinach and a few pumpkin seeds daily to get the magnesium.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... nt&dbid=75