Moderator: ofonorow
recommendations for K2?
I thought eating enough veggies(kale/spinach) was good enough?
gmdodaro wrote:This book is a wealth of information about the various forms of vitamin K. K1 is the kind you get from leafy greens, and this is what is needed for blood to clot. Warfarin, Coumadin, interrupts recycling of K1, so one can take K2 even when taking Warfarin and have the other benefits of K2, including prevention and reversal of coronary calcium and delivery of calcium to the bones, which prevents or reverses osteoprorosis and osteopenia.
The important distinctions are between K1 and the two main types of K2, MK4 and MK7. MK4 and MK7 do not come from leafy greens but from fat of animal products such as butter from green grass grazing cattle and eggs from free range chickens. Few people get enough K2 because most domestic animals are now fed grains and medicated mash instead of what they would ingest from their normal feeding patterns.
There are ways to get enough vitamin K2 from food, but it takes a lot of effort to find things like cheese and butter from grass fed cattle, or natto, a soy product more available in Japan.
For my part, it looks like supplementation with MK4 and MK7 are the way to go. The book cites cases of aortic stenosis that were improved dramatically by MK4 and MK7. Both calcification of arteries and osteoporosis result from deficiencies of vitamin K2. The experiences of many on this forum have shown that improved cardiac function, after Pauling therapy with vitamin C, still does not reduce coronary calcium. Vitamin K2 appears to be a way to reduce calcification of the arteries. The dosages required are much higher than most supplements you'll find in health food stores. The K supplement available on this web site contains 25 mg of MK4 and a good dose of MK7: http://www.k-vitamins.com/. Two of those capsules per day would be roughly the therapeutic dosage used in some of the research sited in the book. MK4 is available quite a bit cheaper and if taken at intervals over the day should work.
ofonorow wrote:If you find a good way - let us know.
There used to be a combination blood pressure machine/laptop called CardioVision that measured arterial stiffness with a series of rapid blood pressure measurements. I have no idea whether this machine is currently available. (It was the test that led us to our personal discovery of the importance of vitamin K in reducing arterial stiffness.)
Apparently, ultrasounds are so good these days that plaques - and their disappearance - can be accurately monitored. There have even been suggestions that we offer ultrasound machines so that our customers can "prove" the benefit of Pauling's therapy.
Perhaps the answer is to design a study around a practice who is willing to use ultrasound for this purpose?
ofonorow wrote:Again, this is the vitamin C foundation.... We are not claiming to be experts in vitamin K, only enthused by its anti calcification and anti-aging properties.
For the record, when my friend Bill Decker added vitamin K to his diet - he got it from a health store and it was only a few hundred micrograms - and yet, his arterial stiffness and blood pressure both dropped into normal range after one year. (This was a lot lower dosage than he would have in the LEF Super-K). This gives me some confidence that even low dosages can have a mighty effect.
I know that Dr. Levy's new book DEATH BY CALCIUM recommends high levels of various forms of vitamin K2, and as per our attitude to other vitamins, we have no objection what-so-ever to these dosages. And we hope people will report their experiences here.
But in the Life Extension meta analysis and the studies I have read, it is not clear cut that one form is that much better than the other for the anti-calcification effect. There are studies showing that K1 has the anti-soft tissue calcification effect (and it may very well be that it is because of the conversion in the gut to K2 as suggested).
So I recommend Super-K because of the mixture, relatively high dosage compared to vitamin K products in vitamin stores, and because my wife (and I) have no evidence of caclium in our arteries. Her recent scan (age 60) was zero. We take one Super-K
daily.
What scan did you and your wife have to determine no calcium in your arteries?
ofonorow wrote:
As far as the negative comments about CardioVision, remember where the money comes from. For example, statin drugs which are touted to help with heart disease. If these drugs could reduce arterial stiffness, these devices would be highly touted, not denigrated.
purposefirst wrote:My experience with vitamin K may be helpful to others.
To set the stage: I have been treating my atherosclerosis orthomolecularly for 13 months now. In the beginning I was experiencing some degree of angina pain (upper left chest pain) when walking, and sometimes some pain even when sitting. As I worked my regimen (which soon included regular aerobic exercise) the chest/angina pain gradually improved, but then seemed to plateau and remain plateaued from July through September. (Incidentally, for at least 6 months I had been using MK7, 180 mcg/day, as part of the regimen.)
During my regular aerobic exercise routine I always go the point where I feel a degree of angina pain. I believe the lessening of the degree of such pain over time, and the ability to increase exercise without that pain, to be a real indication of progress against plaque/calcification. (It's a way to tell if you are improving without a blood test.)
In September I added Thorne liguid K2 (MK4) and took a LOT -- 45 mg/day in 3 divided doses. Within a few weeks I broke away from the plateau as I could see definite improvement in angina pain. In October I replaced the MK7 I had been taking all along with Life Extension's Super K, one gel/day. The improvement in reduced chest pain has continued on to the present. My sense is that it is largely due to the Thorne product!
Recently I reduced the Thorne to 30 mg/day, and the Super K to one gel every other day. (Don't want to overdo it. Can always increase again if needed.)
What do you mean by," treating my atherosclerosis orthomolecularly for 13 months now."?
You have been doing PT? How many grams of VitC/lysine? Was that Bowel Tolerance?
Have you changed your diet? started eating more fruit/veggies
Has your body composition changed? Loss of body fat?
have your labs changed? better cholesterol numbers? low Triglycerides? low HS-CRP?>
Started a weight lifting/cardio routine?
I'm very doubtful that PT even with K added is going to fix the whole picture.
purposefirst wrote:As you can see I'm doing much more than C, lysine, and K (although those components are critical). I believe that with sufficient study, effort and discipline, atherosclerosis/calcified plaque, is fixable! I think I have 6-12 months to go before getting another nuclear scan/stress test to indicate I'm "cured."
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