Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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89826
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Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#1  Post by 89826 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:54 pm

In a post from 2014, a person says that a blood test showed a LPa level of 0 some time after starting PT. Why would PT affect the levels of any serum cholesterol? You can imagine that LPa levels would rise because it would no longer be absorbed in to artery walls.

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#2  Post by exitium » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:19 am

Cholesterol serves many purposes in the body and can become elevated for many reasons. Your body creates cholesterol based on many factors and dietary cholesterol in and of itself really has no bearing on your bodies cholesterol levels.

Cholesterol is used in the body, specifically in the arterial walls as kind of a band-aid. When the arterial walls suffer chronic damage that can be repaired the cholesterol binding helps prevent arterial ruptures but at the cost of elasticity.

When people take PT they supply the needed nutrients to repair the arterial damage and initially there is often a transient increase in cholesterol as its freed from the arterial walls. This is metabolized by the body and cholesterol levels drop because the need is greatly reduced (ie the arteries are healed or healing).

Keep in mind thats an over simplification, cholesterol is also the base for many hormones etc but nonetheless should help convey the idea that cholesterol levels are in flux based on need and are directly influences by various hormones, not to mention various "types" of cholesterol.

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#3  Post by 89826 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:44 am

Exitum,
Thanks for answering. So you are saying that when arteries are healthy (repaired) again, there is signaling to the liver to stop production? I'm guessing no one has a clue about how the signaling works.
Ed

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#4  Post by pamojja » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:58 am

89826 wrote:So you are saying that when arteries are healthy (repaired) again, there is signaling to the liver to stop production?
Ed


Pharma is great at finding those pathways - with unwarranted side-effects though. Also note that I saw repeatedly elevations in cholesterol along with elevations in liver enzymes, or various infections. With only indirect implications to the health of your arteries. And lower cholesterol with a severe androgen deficiency.

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#5  Post by johnyascorbate » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:15 am

In this study done by Pauling and Rath in 1992, 11 Patient were given 9 grams of vitamin C for 14 weeks to lower LP(a). Everyone with the exception of two patient saw a pretty nice decrease in LP(a). Those two patient saw their LP(a) increase. I know lysine and proline are needed to lower LP(a), but vitamin c alone does a good job by itself. Does anyone know why those two patients saw an increase in LP(a)?

http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/About_Dr_Matthias_Rath/publications/pub11.htm

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#6  Post by pamojja » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:26 am

johnyascorbate wrote:Does anyone know why those two patients saw an increase in LP(a)?


As clueless as in my own more intimately known case. With a intake of 22 g of Vitamin C, 6 g of Lysine and 2 g of Proline in average per day for 6 years:

Code: Select all

parameter      2014      2013      2012      2011      2010      2009   units      ref
Lp(a) mass      59   34   43   -   46   64   66   52   46   48   57   mg / dl   0 - 30

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#7  Post by jimmylesante » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:03 pm

This may be stupid- but you know me, i'll say it anyway :)
I'd have thought that perhaps the vitamin B's alongside the vitamin C would help drop Lp(a).
Why i hear you ask? Where is your evidence you cry?Alas I have none.
My twisted thoughts are thus
1)Cholesterol is natural and GOOD
2)Too much animal proteins in diet, causes oxidation of Cholesterol- now cholesterol is BAD(or is it, now it can act as a plaster for broken vascular systems due to not enought Vit C and may be sulphur?)
3)Vitamin B's break down the animal proteins to harmless and healthy substances.
I'm confused.

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#8  Post by exitium » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:22 pm

89826 wrote:Exitum,
Thanks for answering. So you are saying that when arteries are healthy (repaired) again, there is signaling to the liver to stop production? I'm guessing no one has a clue about how the signaling works.
Ed


Yes, more or less thats what I was getting at. Im not sure if the signalling has been fully explored and of course the arterial wall damage and its need for cholesterol as a repair agent in times when other nutrients are lacking, is just one of the many things that account for changes in cholesterol.

High insulin levels, as seen in high carb diets, almost always cause increase in cholesterol. When certain hormone levels are below what the body thinks they should be, cholesterol levels will also become elevated because they are the main building block for many hormones.

I havent done extensive research on it myself because by and large its just one aspect of the nutritional picture and I have found through my own experimentation that when the body is provided everything it needs from a nutritional standpoint and inflammatory factors are consumed in moderation everything else pretty much seems to fall in line. Hormone levels begin to balance out, various markers of inflammation decline, cholesterol levels fall in line, mental clarity improves, mood, athletic performance and what have you all start to slowly change for the better.

Admittedly when I first started on my path I was looking to address a specific health issue and the more I researched the more I realized that pretty much every nutrient either directly or indirectly had some bearing on what I was trying to address so I slowly but surely addressed each nutrient and over the years everything has improved. So right now for friends and family I try and save them the time and energy of simply looking for a single smoking gun and address the bodies needs as a whole. Let the body acclimate, adjust, repair which may take months or years, then reassess. This will leave you with a much narrower field of issues to target and hone in on.

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#9  Post by tjohnson_nb » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:47 pm

89826 wrote:In a post from 2014, a person says that a blood test showed a LPa level of 0 some time after starting PT. Why would PT affect the levels of any serum cholesterol? You can imagine that LPa levels would rise because it would no longer be absorbed in to artery walls.

I believe that lysine and proline may bind with lp(a) in the bloodstream to keep it from attaching to arterial walls hence lowering the concentration.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: Why would PT reduce serum levels of LPa?

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:19 am

johnyascorbate wrote:In this study done by Pauling and Rath in 1992, 11 Patient were given 9 grams of vitamin C for 14 weeks to lower LP(a). Everyone with the exception of two patient saw a pretty nice decrease in LP(a). Those two patient saw their LP(a) increase. I know lysine and proline are needed to lower LP(a), but vitamin c alone does a good job by itself. Does anyone know why those two patients saw an increase in LP(a)?

http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/About_Dr_Matthias_Rath/publications/pub11.htm


Thank you! All these years and I had never run across this pilot study!

And this explains why Atherotech (VAP test) says that the literature supports a 30% drop in Lp(a) from taking either Niacin or Vitamin C. The Pauling/Rath pilot study was of short duration, but does illustrate that ascorbate (vitamin C) can play some role all by itself in Lp(a) reduction.

Remember that statin cholesterol-lowering drugs are known to ELEVATE Lp(a) levels. And there is the confusion caused by the FDA which allows Lp(a) to be CALCULATED (rather than actually measured) and finally, give then different sizes of the Lp(a), a bigger mass number is not automatically bad, as the smaller particles are more "atherogenic."

In review, I tell this story in the book, a NY medical school professor had elevated Lp(a) and began by taking vitamin C and lysine, and after 6 months, his measured Lp(a) dropped 30% in six months, or what Atherotech (and this pilot study) might have predicted. At that point, he added proline (but unfortunately forgot to get the next six month measurement). When he had the second measurement about 14 months later - his Lp(a) was measured at zero! (Astonished, he called me.)

We have assumed the zero Lp(a) was because of the addition of the proline. (Time might have been a factor.) The University of Chicago discovered the proline binding sites on Lp(a) that are similar to the lysine binding sites. And it seems that these binding sites are used to attach the sticky apo(a) molecule to the LDL particle, creating Lp(a). And the body can makes its own proline. So, one idea is that the reason there is less Lp(a) with higher proline intake (especially as we age and our own proline production declines) is because the proline is binding to the apo(a) and preventing the formation of Lp(a) in the liver.

As far as the general production of cholesterol - the relation between cholesterol in the blood and vitamin C intake has been studied extensively by Emil Ginter - in humans and guinea pigs. (And I mean extensively! See the Ginter abstracts http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=152) Pauling summarizes the Ginter work in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (1986) and this is where the "normal" number for total cholesterol of 180 mg/dl comes from.
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