Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:16 am

Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447075/


It was noticed early on (at least a decade ago) after they first created mice with the GULO defect preventing them from making vitamin C - that these mice would suffer atherosclerosis.

This connection with Lp(a) is interesting as the mice (which normally make their own vitamin C) shouldn't have had an evolutionary reason to make Lp(a) - one would think.
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Re: Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#2  Post by Johnwen » Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:53 pm

Unless indicated, vitamin C was provided in double distilled drinking water containing 150 mg/L ascorbic acid (Sigma) and 0.01 mM EDTA (Sigma) in addition to 10 g/L of sucrose. Water was changed twice a week. In addition, vitamin C was provided in food fortified with 500 ppm L-ascorbyl-polyphosphate, milled at Test Diet® as a Modified Custom Lab Diet #5A38. During the study mice consumed on average 4 g of food and drank about 5 mL of water daily.


Nothing like stacking the deck against the V-C!
99.985% More sugar (sucrose) then V-C mixed in the same liquid!
Simply said; They might as well not given them any V-C to begin with because the sugar just wiped out the effects of the V-C!!’
If they had LP(a) in their blood why didn’t they add lysine to the mix at least the sugar won’t have wiped out it’s effects!!
500ppm (Parts Per MILLION) I breath in more then that when I open a bottle of V-C!!

GARBAGE SCIENCE AT IT”S BEST!!!!!!
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Re: Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#3  Post by OxC » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:58 pm

Johnwen wrote:
Unless indicated, vitamin C was provided in double distilled drinking water containing 150 mg/L ascorbic acid (Sigma) and 0.01 mM EDTA (Sigma) in addition to 10 g/L of sucrose. Water was changed twice a week. In addition, vitamin C was provided in food fortified with 500 ppm L-ascorbyl-polyphosphate, milled at Test Diet® as a Modified Custom Lab Diet #5A38. During the study mice consumed on average 4 g of food and drank about 5 mL of water daily.


Nothing like stacking the deck against the V-C!
99.985% More sugar (sucrose) then V-C mixed in the same liquid!
Simply said; They might as well not given them any V-C to begin with because the sugar just wiped out the effects of the V-C!!’
If they had LP(a) in their blood why didn’t they add lysine to the mix at least the sugar won’t have wiped out it’s effects!!
500ppm (Parts Per MILLION) I breath in more then that when I open a bottle of V-C!!

GARBAGE SCIENCE AT IT”S BEST!!!!!!


Hi Johnwen,
Their solution contains a ratio of 67:1 sugar to AA (w/w). Orange juice has 8 grams sugar and 60 mg ascorbate in 100 mL, so the ratio of sugar to AA is 133:1. Expressed as PPM, the amount of AA in orange juice is about 600 PPM. I don't have any opinion or purpose in pointing this out, other than I'm curious if you have any comment?
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Re: Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#4  Post by Johnwen » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:30 pm

Which is why orange juice is not a good source of V-C however it’s an excellent source of citric acid! Citric acid in the body breaks down to Oxalic acid and threonic acid in water which makes up a good percentage of OJ then thrown into the stomach acids and the reaction begins. Which if not excreted form oxalates. Which in turn form kidney stones! However the big money of the citrus industry just like big pharma money with statins. Have managed to dance all around this and show all kinds of benefits. Here’s one of my previous posts on this!

Try this! Did you know drinking Fruit Juices causes Kidney Stones???
Ask your self this! Why haven’t I heard about this?? Maybe it’s $$$$
How about Just blaming the V-C component? Yea! They ain’t got NO $$$$

Well Here it is simple chemistry!!
5 C7H8O7 + 7 H2O = 3 H2C2O4 + 6 C4H8O5


Now for sugar and V-C !

Comparative percentage!
150mg / 10000mg (10grams)= .015
100%(10000mg)-.015(150mg.)=99.985%

Total percentage!
150mg+10000mg=10150mg
150 /10150 = .014778
100% - .014778% = 99.98523%

Yepp! 150 into 10000 = 66.6666 to 1
Same thing only different numbers So for every mg of AA they added 67 Mg. of sugar Still a lot!!!


The chemical formula of sugars and ascorbic acid are so similar that the body uses and treats it just like sugar! Remember what I have said quite often that cells in the body eat two things Sugar and Fats! Sugar provides energy and fats provide structure to the cells!
Now when you consume both sugar and V-C and one out numbers the other the larger volume will win out every time!
Leaving the other to either be forgotten and excreted or be degraded to a point where it will be useless in the body and soon meet the same faith or it‘ll be stored for latter use!

In the following links Dr. Jim shows how this competition works. Then a LPI article written by PHD Grant on what too much sugar does to the body.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james52.htm

http://www.orthomed.org/resources/papers/grntcard.htm


Summary; Taking V-C with any form of sugar is never a good idea!
Drinking Orange juice a good source of Citric acid and is also not a very good source of V-C unless they fortify it! However they would be counter acting there own myth by doing this!
Odd’s on stones and OJ about 1 in 11!
Which is why I never touch the stuff!
At 68 my EGRF is still a 92!

Now you know where I stand on this article and why! It’s garbage!!
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research!

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Re: Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#5  Post by OxC » Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:11 am

Johnwen wrote:Which is why orange juice is not a good source of V-C...Taking V-C with any form of sugar is never a good idea!
Drinking Orange juice a good source of Citric acid and is also not a very good source of V-C

That is basically what I asked. Thanks.
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Re: Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#6  Post by JohnCCha » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:25 am

Hello everyone. I am glad to see all the ascorbate fanatics still alive and well! With this, I would like to address some key points that were not understood/misunderstood. On a tangent, if this article is wrong, then Linus Pauling is wrong, and we can all quit and go home. Fortunately, this transgenic knockout mouse study has proven all of you correct.

There is this harping on the miniscule amount of sugar added to the water fortified with vitamin C and EDTA, incorrrectly extrapolating this to be a dose for humans. This is clearly for mice, these particular ones weighing 30 grams in adulthood. Do you weigh 30 grams? or 70,000 grams? Sort of a slight difference, disqualifying the below concerns as a mere gratuitous sentiment rather than any flaw noted in experimental design. With a mouse eating 4 grams, this is 13% of their bodyweight in food. For a human being of 180 pounds weight, that would be 23 pounds of food a day. A mouse drinks 4-5mL of water, unlike humans who average drinking 2,000mL of water a day. Mice drink 17% of their own bodyweight in water daily. If you attempted to do this, as a 180 pound human, this is about 30 pounds of water or almost 14 liters of water. The species and size difference is important. The mice find the fortified water unpalatable and will not drink it without the 10 grams of sucrose per liter of water. It is not added to entertain the mice or "stack the decks against vitamin C." Why would I do that. If this were the case, the mice would all die within 8 weeks, but they do not with this 150mg/L vitamin C, 0.01mM EDTA, 10g/L sucrose water. The amount of sucrose needed to induce anything close to metabolic syndrome in mice is over 100 grams sucrose per liter, which would send humans into a near instant pre-diabetes. Of course you should not take excessive sugar with your vitamin C, that is self evident to one of ordinary skill in the matter. 10grams/L sucrose is not even close to worrisome for mice. There is an additional error in calculations mentioned below. 500ppm of 4 grams of food (you do not eat 4 grams of food a day, but around 1,000 grams of food a day), is 2 milligrams. Certainly, for a human, 2 milligrams would be a miniscule scurvy inducing amount. Considering the size of mice versus humans, which was ignored below, this is equivalent to 4,000-5,000 mg daily for a 70 kilo bodyweight human. All well in line with the original Linus Pauling/Matthias Rath doses for cardioprotection.....in humans.

The problem below, the faulty foundation is the a priori assumption that humans are the same size as mice, and that the experimental parameters are for humans. They are for mice, not humans.

Additionally, Maeda DID NOT find atherosclerosis in the Gulo-/- mouse with total vitamin C deprivation. He found arterial degeneration and increased Evans blue permeability but not plaque formation which necessitates transgenic Lp(a) genes and also the mice staying alive beyond 6 weeks which they do not under total scurvy. Arterial degeneration and atherosclerotic plaque is not the same thing as one of ordinary knowledge in the field understands. The transgenic knockout mouse is a system to study human atherogenesis in a mouse. Some things are the same, other things are different such as size and dimension.

All the best to your health! :)

"Johnwen wrote:

Unless indicated, vitamin C was provided in double distilled drinking water containing 150 mg/L ascorbic acid (Sigma) and 0.01 mM EDTA (Sigma) in addition to 10 g/L of sucrose. Water was changed twice a week. In addition, vitamin C was provided in food fortified with 500 ppm L-ascorbyl-polyphosphate, milled at Test Diet® as a Modified Custom Lab Diet #5A38. During the study mice consumed on average 4 g of food and drank about 5 mL of water daily.



Nothing like stacking the deck against the V-C!
99.985% More sugar (sucrose) then V-C mixed in the same liquid!
Simply said; They might as well not given them any V-C to begin with because the sugar just wiped out the effects of the V-C!!’
If they had LP(a) in their blood why didn’t they add lysine to the mix at least the sugar won’t have wiped out it’s effects!!
500ppm (Parts Per MILLION) I breath in more then that when I open a bottle of V-C!!

GARBAGE SCIENCE AT IT”S BEST!!!!!!"

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Re: Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#7  Post by OxC » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:35 pm

JohnCCha wrote:With this, I would like to address some key points that were not understood/misunderstood.

Thank you Mr. Cha for coming here to address these points. I'm pleased that the first author on the study under discussion would take the time to do so. I personally found your research very interesting and important, and your comment that "Maeda DID NOT find atherosclerosis in the Gulo-/- mouse with total vitamin C deprivation..." points to the important difference that in your study, you demonstrated the actual vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) under hypoascorbemic conditions.
JohnCCha wrote:The transgenic knockout mouse is a system to study human atherogenesis in a mouse. Some things are the same, other things are different such as size and dimension.

It occurs to me that your particular mouse model might be appropriate to assess the question of whether the inclusion in the diet of large amounts of proline/lysine actually can help prevent the deposition of lipoprotein(a).

All the best to you also, and Happy New Year!
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

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Re: Hypoascorbemia induces atherosclerosis and vascular deposition of lipoprotein(a) in transgenic mice

Post Number:#8  Post by JohnCCha » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:12 pm

"It occurs to me that your particular mouse model might be appropriate to assess the question of whether the inclusion in the diet of large amounts of proline/lysine actually can help prevent the deposition of lipoprotein(a)."


Yes, that is what question naturally follows, Mr. OxC. I am putting together the results right now of ascorbate + l-lysine + niacin in respect to shrinking down pre-formed atherosclerotic plaque.


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