Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

Moderator: ofonorow

blade

Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#16  Post by blade » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:41 pm

89826 wrote:Blade, the answers to the questions I think you are asking lie in what you wrote. Animal foods and protein damage endothelial progenitor cells. Eating fat leads to claudication because blood cells have a very slight negative charge to prevent clumping (clotting). (Remember that opposites repel.) When you eat fat, it coats the cells and reduces the strength of the repulsive force, so clumping occurs.

Eggs and egg whites are not plant foods- they are animal foods. As far as I am aware, Esselstyn is the first to emphasize so heavily that having a healthy endothelium is critical to maintaining cardiovascular health. I think I have heard Ornish say that fish oil is good for you. (That may be true wrt lipid profiles. But you are after healthy arteries, not good numbers.) Esselstyn disagrees because it damages the endothelium. They otherwise agree on so much.


I dont see that?
it seems fat is the the culprit, how/why do you think it's proteinas eggwhites have no fat/no cholestrol, yet Essytn says no to them and ornish, says yes

recall this from that study:
no, because it seems a high fat diet causes endothelial damage
ApoE−/− mice maintained on a standard chow diet (SC) (65% carbohydrate, 15% fat, 20% protein) develop small amounts of atherosclerosis. In contrast, ApoE−/− mice on the so-called ‘Western’ diet (WD) (43% carbohydrate, 42% fat, 15% protein, and 0.15% cholesterol) develop extensive aortic atherosclerosis including complex plaques similar to those seen in humans
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed

the increase in dietary fat seems to cause the damage.. the mouse with less protein andmore fat in its diet had much worse endo damage
why do you think protien from animals and not fat is what causes the damage?

Im really wondering and not trying to fight, I just dont see what you see, what are you looking at?

Thanks

Im also curious if the reason fat/protein hurts the endothelium is because of a lack of vit C or some other nutritent,I cant find out the MOA of how/what damage is done, cept death of EPCs

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Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#17  Post by ofonorow » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:10 am

This is a discussion, not a peer-reviewed paper, and we all make mistakes. I try to be accurate, but when I make a mistake – a lot of people let me know!

And I am sure I will make mistakes in what follows.

However, there are many (lets say differences of opinion) in 89826's posts. So here goes.

First

There is an easy way to make your heart-attack proof in 3 weeks. Adopt Pauling's therapy.




Eating a plant-based diet helps on both fronts.


You might check out Nick Gonzalez Video lecture on Cancer and Enzymes. He relates the lesson learned that not one diet is correct for every person... (The Dr. who taught Gonazles, thought like you, put his third wife on the “correct” low fat diet, and she nearly died. In desperation he put her on the opposite – high meat/fat diet – and she thrived. Has to due with parasympathetic nervous system and how fast our digestive tracts are...)

If you don't eat any cholesterol, deposition on the artery walls is soon halted and the first mechanism is out of play.


As Blade (and Pauling) point out, cholesterol is so important that if you don't eat it, the liver will make more. And many things in your life depend on adequate cholesterol – including keeping your arterial walls strong in the absence of vitamin C.


If you have a healthy endothelium, then the fragile plaques can't rupture because they are shielded from the blood rushing by. So the second mechanism is out of play also. I emphasize however, that compliance must be 100%. Half-hearted attempts, i.e. moderation, in this regard can be fatal.


Right and as you discuss later, vitamin C protects and strengthens endothelium cells.

Your contention seems to be that “fats” can harm these cells, do I have your contention correct?

Lets take away Trans Fats and even PUFAs from the equation as potentially harmful, what we learn from Thomas Smith (healingmatters.com) is that all cells have lipid membranes that are constantly being repaired. This ongoing repair process is necessary so that the cell doesn't make like a popped balloon. (Smith's cure for Diabetes Type 2 is to only provide good Omega 3 fats (not trans fatty acids which can also be used for the membrane repair – but clog the receptors).

So anything in science is subject to question, but there are at least two essential fatty acids, and if these aren't obtained in the diet, then we die. Period. Our body's need but cannot make them. (Aside Don the aide to Roger J Williams, considered Omega/3s the most important supplement (discussion with me) and in my recent anti-aging reading, true Omega/3 science is amazing. You want healthy fats because you want healthy cell membranes. (But I agree that you don't want trans fats or the PUFA fats)


Here's some brief background on this approach. There are two different ways in which heart attacks occur: First, gradual stenosis (narrowing) of the pipes (arteries) feeding the heart. Much like a drain slowly becoming clogged. And due to plaque accumulation on the artery walls. (Pauling's idea is that those plaque deposits are patches on weakened arteries due to a lack of vitamin C.) That is the mechanism only about 10% to 15% of the time, and usually there are symptoms (chest pain) from the inadequate blood flow. However, the majority of the time, the pipes are fairly open and people are asymptomatic. But what happens is that the plaques rupture leading to thrombosis (clotting), and the blood supply is cut off.


Both are the same process. The problem is not the plaque. It is the weakened arterial wall, and the body's attempt to heal it with Lp(a) and a variety of other material (See Levy's STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILER for a detailed description of what happens when arteries become “unstable.”_

But you must not eat any foods which injure the endothelium. So that means a plant-based diet with no oil.


First sentence may or may not be true. I doubt the second statement can be true. You would die without the essential fatty acids.

All oils destroy the endothelium, which is the gateway to atherosclerotic heart disease. Fish get their omega 3's from plants.


This statement cannot be true, and at least needs to be put in context. Yes trans fats may “destroy” the cells as explained by Thomas Smith, ditto PUFA (to some extent). But to claim all “oils” do this is false.

There was a study done with African green monkeys.

Do we know whether this primate makes its own vitamin C? (Latest research is that only certain high level primates don't have this capacity. If they make their own, they are not a good model for humans. Also, we know that certain Rehsus monkey's Lp(a) has a proline binding site (but not a lysine binding site), etc.)

Five years, two groups, equal calories. One fed a diet high in saturated fat, the other olive oil. All along the way, their blood was tested and the olive-oil eaters showed just what you would hope for and even what you might have expected: higher hdl, lower ldl, lower triglycerides. Nothing but good news. After five years, poor bastards were killed and autopsied. Both groups showed the same massive atherosclerosis. Don't hear much about that study from the olive-oil industry.


Proves what? I am confused. If these monkey's cannot make their own vitamin C than that was most likely the cause of the atherosclerosis!

Animal protein (e.g. egg whites and eggs) damages the endothelium. A damaged endothelium is a first step in newer, softer plaques rupturing. Esselstyn's emphasis is avoiding all foods which damage the endothelium, which means eating plant foods. No meat, fish, fowl, dairy foods, or oils.


That “foods” can somehow damage arterial cells (other than the trans fats and PUFAs) is hard to imagine, since all foods are DIGESTED. They are digested into amino acids, various sugars and fatty acids. Going from A (a food) and blaming damage to a particular cell on the food, is quite a leap.

By the way, everyone over the age of 50 who has been eating the aptly named SAD (standard American diet) has heart disease and should be treated as such. Everyone.


Sorry, I am what 62, and I have no heart disease and I eat the Standard American Diet. This fact was proven by a Thallium Stress Test in 2011. (The cardiologist told me to see him again “in 20 years.”)

Now, I can find nothing wrong with the following. Absolutely no bones to pick..


Pauling's idea was that because humans don't make vitamin C (unlike virtually all other creatures), we almost all suffer from subclinical scurvy. Our bodies are 70% tissue (the rest is bone), and vitamin C is essential to the synthesis of collagen (tissue). Atherosclerotic plaques are repair patches on arteries (tissue) weakened by not enough vitamin C in our blood. This idea explains a couple of things which traditional cardiology can't: why don't other animals with very high levels of cholesterol have heart disease. Bears famously have levels of 600 but no heart attacks. The answer is they make their own vitamin C and so have strong arteries. So no patches and no rupturing patches. The second thing is that the vast majority of plaque deposition occurs near the heart and neck. Why those two regions and not throughout the entire network of blood vessels (10,000 miles!) in our bodies? The answer is that the mechanical stresses on the blood vessels are the greatest there: pulsatile stresses from the beating heart and stresses from the bending and twisting neck.


Blade, the answers to the questions I think you are asking lie in what you wrote. Animal foods and protein damage endothelial progenitor cells. Eating fat leads to claudication because blood cells have a very slight negative charge to prevent clumping (clotting). (Remember that opposites repel.) When you eat fat, it coats the cells and reduces the strength of the repulsive force, so clumping occurs.


Not very convincing because fat only travels in the blood freely as triglycerides (otherwise it is contained with a lipoprotein carrier.) And the way to INCREASE triglycerides is to eat carbohydrates!
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

blade

Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#18  Post by blade » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:58 am

ofonorow wrote:You might check out Nick Gonzalez Video lecture on Cancer and Enzymes. He relates the lesson learned that not one diet is correct for every person... (The Dr. who taught Gonazles, thought like you, put his third wife on the “correct” low fat diet, and she nearly died. In desperation he put her on the opposite – high meat/fat diet – and she thrived. Has to due with parasympathetic nervous system and how fast our digestive tracts are...)

how can a low fat diet(assuming you are getting enough EFAs) almost kill someone?
someone "thrived on a high meat/high fat diet?"
was that all she ate? or was she also eating veggies/fruits? I feel there is something missing because you lack details.. was a high fat diet 50% fat? what is "high fat"? Fat impairs endothel function, true you need fat, but it still impairs endothel function, ie production of Nitric oxide

I'm trying to eat a diet that optimize endothelium function
I'm greatly confused about what impairs endothelium function. aninal protien? animal fat? low carbs, high carbs and how exactly does the damage occur?

endothel function means the body is able to make enough nitric oxide, which has many uses.

See nitric oxide helps the body to:
-regulate blood pressure
-kill cancer cells/prevent metastasis of cancer
-vasdodialtion
-supports heart function(as eating nitrates/nitrites are the basis for the heart pill, "nitroglycerin"
-help with neuronal(BRAIN) function
-help with wound healing
-you don't need to cook veggies to absorb the nirAtes to give the body the nitratITes it needs to make NO gas(this gas is in the body for about 5ms at most. MILI-SECONDS yet it is very inportant

so I've told you the above before, you need to eat veggies/fruit to make NO gas and you need NO gas for many many health issues.
BUT what I've learned is the cells that make the NO gas, called " EPCs or (Endothelial progenitor cells )"
can be killed off
when they die, you make less NO gas and will start to have health issues(heart, cancer, dementia)

read that again, you need a high nitrate diet to ward off dementia
Ie some links
http://www.acnr.co.uk/ND09/ACNRND09_nitric_acid.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 103832.htm
http://nro.sagepub.com/content/16/4/435

Because the 1-5ms that NO gas is present, does a lot of work

so I've told you how to get more NO gas and why it's so important(again) but I havent told you what I've learned recently
THE EPCs, the cells that make the NO gas, they can be killed off.
Recall, certain things increase the number of EPCs(which mean more NO GAS) things like
not being fat--obesisty hurts endothelium--http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22747715

exercise cardio and weights--increase number of EPCS
(yes, HITT exercise will increase the EPCS more than walking)
anitioxidants like C and E(spinach!) will increase the numbers

Bad nEWS
You can kill off EPCS


-eating fat will kill off the cells
this is why "low carb diets are bad" because a low carb diet is usually high in fat
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early ... 6.full.pdf
-eating about 10-20% of calories from fat(satured fat) is best to increase endothelial progenitor cells(EPCs) in elderly subjects.(this is a low fat diet) and it's not getting alot of sugar, yuo want to focus on fruit and veggies
Fruit is not going to increase your blood sugar, unless you eat 4-5lbs of it.
but any other man made food will. I hate to think how high popcorn makes your blood sugar and eating a ton of popcorn just makes it hiigher


--high blood sugar will also kill them off
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/co ... /1559.full

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Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#19  Post by pamojja » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:21 pm

Eating a plant-based diet helps on both fronts.


I ate a plant-based diet (no eggs, fish or fats) since age 10. By age 42 was diagnosed a PAD due to a 80% stenosis at the abdominal aorta bifurcation with the debilitating symptoms of claudatio intermittens, a pain-free walking distance of only 3-400 meters.

Went up to 70% of my calories from fat and down to 10% in carbs along with Pauling's Therapy. And my walking distance improved greatly since.

You might check out Nick Gonzalez Video lecture on Cancer and Enzymes. He relates the lesson learned that not one diet is correct for every person...


One recent study to exemplify, how different constitutions need different approaches:

Twelve Year Followup for Managing Coronary Artery Diease Using a Nutrigenomics Based Diet and Supplement Program With Quarterly Assessment of Biomarkers

Steven R Gundry

Abstract

Introduction: Coronary Artery Disease (CAD) is thought to be progressive; standard protocols call for a low fat/low cholesterol diet, exercise, and lipid lowering agents in an effort to slow the onset of recurrent MI’s, stents, CABG’s, stroke, or death. This results in an approximate 30-40% new event rate in 5 yrs.

Methods: Based upon our experience using a Nutrigenomic-based, Lectin-limited diet to prevent/reverse Metabolic Syndrome and CAD, we have enrolled and followed 978 pts (aged 42-89 yrs) with known CAD, defined as previous MI, stent, CABG, or positive stress test/angiogram, positive Corus score greater than 30, into a diet and supplement based, physician coached program, which emphasizes large amts of leafy green vegetables, olive oil, radical reduction of grain, legumes, nightshades, and fruits; and 4 oz amts of animal proteins, emphasizing shellfish, wild fish, and grass fed meats, while avoiding commercial poultry (Matrix Protocol). All Apo E 4 genotypes ate large amts of shellfish and avoided animal fats and cheeses. All pts were instructed to take 2-4,000 mg of high DHA fish oil, 200mg of Grape Seed Extract, and 50 mg of Pycnogenol per day. Supplements were individualized based on results of Advanced Cardiovascular Risk Markers, which were sent to three core labs, (Berkeley Heart Labs, and Singulex, Alameda, CA, Health Diagnostics Labs, Richmond,VA) q 3 months and followed to measure compliance and to change supplement/eating regimens.

Results: Pts have been followed for 1.5 to 12 years (mean 9 yrs). While enrolled, 13/978 pts (1.3%) have received a new stent, two that were predicted by a rising Lp-PLA2, two required CABG, based on a rising Corus score, despite HDL’s of 110-120 mg/dl. There have been no MI’s, unstable angina. One pt underwent carotid endarterectomy ; one pt suffered a CVA and died, while in atrial fibrillation, A second pt expired from a ruptured cerebral berry aneurysm. Total CV events over 12 years is 16/978 (1.6%).

Conclusions: We conclude that simple Nutrigenomic-based dietary interventions, emphasizing lectin avoidance, with compliance and supplement choices based upon q 3 month assessment of biomarkers, represents a quantum leap forward in preventing/modifying Cardiovascular events in known CAD patients.

Author Disclosures: S.R. Gundry: Consultant/Advisory Board; Modest; SINGULEX.

© 2015 by American Heart Association, Inc.


(bolded by my) From 5 years 30%, down to 12 years 1.6% CV events. Quite a leap possible even without Pauling's therapy.

So 89826, if you experienced improvement like I did by changing to a high fat diet - by conversely changing to a low-fat diet - I would bet you're of the Apo E 4 genotype. No contradiction here.

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Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#20  Post by 89826 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:34 am

Owen, you hit the nail on the head. We humans make all the cholesterol we need. We are born with a level of 100. It doesn't go to 0 if we don't eat foods with cholesterol. We make all we need. From an evolutionary perspective, since cholesterol is needed for us to live, that means our food supply was not a reliable source-- we weren't regularly consuming animal products. Otherwise we wouldn't be shouldering the burden of cholesterol-manufacturing machinery. It is the same situation in reverse with vitamin C; our ancient diet allowed us to jettison the metabolic cost of making vitamin C.

ALL oils destroy the endothelium. Other foods too. This can be easily tested and has been tested using the brachial artery tourniquet test. Are you familiar with that test?

I mentioned the study with olive oil to emphasize the point that favorable lipid profiles do not guarantee healthy arteries. Many in this crowd probably realize that, but many in the rest of the world don't. Some don't here too.

Both mechanisms are not the same. One involves the sudden rupture of plaque leading to thrombosis, the other does not-- it is gradual stenosis. The first is much more common, something like 90% to 10%. The plaque rupture in arteries which are relatively open allows people (like you?) to pass stress tests with flying colors (be asymptomatic) and (sometimes) have heart attacks relatively soon after.

Have you ever been sleepy after a high-fat meal? Why do you think that happens?
Last edited by 89826 on Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#21  Post by pamojja » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:04 am

89826 wrote:Have you ever been sleepy after a high-fat meal? Why do you think that happens?


The opposite. I eat only twice a day. With enough fat and protein in my breakfast I feel full until dinner. Only short before dinner I fell sleepy a bit, but then it (with enough fats) always gives me a second wind.

Why do you think I should feel sleepy right after a high-fat meal?

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Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#22  Post by jimmylesante » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:37 am

Have you ever been sleepy after a high-fat meal? Why do you think that happens?

After protein and fat say lots of biltong (or beef jerky) to you Americans i just feel full for ages. After a packet of crisps and a few white bread rolls i feel sleepy after wards but i guessed this was from the sugar and carbs which spike my Insulin then drop it.
I guess fat and protein would take longer to digest and so more oxygenated blood pumped towards the stomach area would leave less oxygen for the rest of the body???
Or perhaps the vagus nerve in the stomach is activated more after eating which slows everything down?

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Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#23  Post by pamojja » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:47 am

89826 wrote:ALL oils destroy the endothelium. Other foods too. This can be easily tested and has been tested using the brachial artery tourniquet test. Are you familiar with that test?

I mentioned the study with olive oil to emphasize the point that favorable lipid profiles do not guarantee healthy arteries. Many in this crowd probably realize that, but many in the rest of the world don't. Some don't here too.


Many individual tests - be it the brachial arthery tourniquet or lipid profiles - just don't correlate that much with serious endpoints, like premature mortality.

Sometimes not even with soft results, for example the ABI, which in my case was worst when my pain-free walking distance from my stenosis the longest.

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Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#24  Post by jimmylesante » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:18 am

I hate to say it but maybe Blade has a good point in the fact that oils etc may only hurt your endothelial cells if you have a distinct lack of Vit C.
For example the typical person on a Paleo/Banting diet thinks all protein and fat is ok and never ever eat enough vegetables to supply the protection against too much protein and fat.
Exercise causes damage to muscle cells(perhaps even to the vascular cells?) but exercise over all is still good for you. Perhaps even better if you were loaded up on antioxidants to fix things quickly?
Clearly you can tell i'm struggling to digest that ALL oils are bad for you

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#25  Post by exitium » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:11 am

jimmylesante wrote:This is an interesting thread.
Olive oil i don't touch, particularly alleged "extra virgin olive oil" as it is misrepresented terribly.
I'm sure the bears don't eat McDonalds and biscuits etc as well. Do animals die when their vitamin C runs out??
I guess normally we'd avoid eating large amounts of oils in the wild. Gerson avoided aromatic oils but allowed the flax seed? More research for me :)
Who's this guy Norman Walker? Lived to 117 using juices.


This is an interesting thread.

I dont necessarily believe that "normally we'd avoid eating large amounts of oils in the wild". On the contrary. many people who "live off the land" so to speak consume large amounts of animal fat because they need the calories to survive, especially in the winter. Perhaps not exactly what you meant by "oils". In the Mediterranean area though I do believe historically oils were very often consumed so I suppose it depends where one lived.

There was a guy some time ago who claimed it wasnt the fat that was the problem but weather or not the fat was "rancid" that caused all the problems. His claim was most processing methods today employ heat etc that actually cause the oil to become rancid and its properties to change and it was this change in the oils that made them harmful.

blade

Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#26  Post by blade » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:29 am

pamojja wrote:
89826 wrote:Have you ever been sleepy after a high-fat meal? Why do you think that happens?



Why do you think I should feel sleepy right after a high-fat meal?

sounds like Postprandial somnolence

you have an insulin spike which drives most amino acids into cells., except neutral AA which go into the brain and increase serotinin and cause you to get sleepy
or are your meals carb free?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postprandial_somnolence

blade

Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#27  Post by blade » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:36 am

89826 wrote:ALL oils destroy the endothelium. Other foods too. This can be easily tested and has been tested using the brachial artery tourniquet test. Are you familiar with that test?


oh yeah, thanks, the BRachial artery test
I had completely forgotton about that!.


This dude did expiriments, I think this shows very well fat hurts the endothelium and perhaps we should keep total fat intake 10-20% of calories and even maybe only eat fat in one meal a day?

http://www.bethehealthyu.com/healthy-bl ... et-damaged



Our endothelial cells get damaged by foods that we eat, specifically, fatty foods (including animal foods, with saturated fat), fast foods, all oils, and caffeine.

Dr. Robert A. Vogel of the University of Maryland School of Medicine demonstrated the direct and immediate impact of fatty food on our endothelial cells in 1999(1) using the Brachial Artery Tourniquet Test (BART), a noninvasive technique that uses ultrasound to measure the diameter of the brachial artery before and after consuming various foods. The test is used to determine how long it takes the brachial artery to spring back to its normal, pre-meal diameter, a measure of how much nitric oxide (a powerful vasodilator) is being produced by the endothelial cells to dilate the artery.

Dr. Vogel used a group of students to show that even one fatty meal could damage the endothelial cells lining the brachial artery wall. He started by using Brachial Artery Tourniquet Test to get a baseline measurement of how long it took the students’ artery walls to spring back to normal.

The students were divided into two groups: one group was fed a fast food breakfast with 900 calories and 50 grams of fat; the other group was fed a breakfast of 900 calories with no fat. Dr. Vogel repeated the Brachial Artery Tourniquet Test after the students ate and found some impressive results: for the “no fat” group, the arteries bounced back to normal as they had when first measured before the meal; for the “high fat” group, the arteries took significantly longer to return to normal. This shows the impact that a single meal can have on our endothelial cells.

Processed vegetable oils, dairy products, and meat (including chicken & fish) injure endothelial cells, and in doing so, reduce the number of functioning endothelial cells that can produce protective nitric oxide. Without enough nitric oxide, plaque blockages build up and grow, and eventually cause heart disease and strokes. And according to Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr., MD, what BART really tells us is that with every single Western meal we eat, whether it’s meat, dairy, or olive oil, we injure our endothelium.(3) So just imagine what happens after eating one or more high-fat meals every single day, as so many Americans do!

By injuring our endothelial cells and reducing the amount of endothelial cells left to produce nitric oxide, our Standard American Diet also makes our blood “sticky”, so the mess of cholesterol, cells, and debris can cause a whole cascade of events that lead to inflammation, heart disease, plaque formation, and heart attacks.

In a follow-up study the next year, Dr. Vogel used the same Brachial Artery Tourniquet Test technique to investigate the fatty components of the Mediterranean diet to determine the impact of the “healthy” fats on the function of endothelial cells.(4)

In this study, 10 healthy subjects were fed meals with 900 calories and 50 grams of fat. The meals consisted of either olive oil, canola oil, or salmon (fish oil) with bread. In addition, two of the olive oil meals were supplemented with antioxidant vitamins (C and E) or with foods (balsamic vinegar and salad).

Vogel found that after the meals, olive oil constricted blood flow by 31%, three times as much as canola oil (10%) and 15 times as much as fish oil (2%)! So even olive oil is compromising our endothelial cells!

The study concluded that “the beneficial components of the Mediterranean and Lyon Diet Heart Study diets appear to be antioxidant-rich foods, including vegetables, fruits, and their derivatives such as vinegar, and omega-3-rich fish and canola oils” (not olive oil).(4) Canola oil may share some of the unique vasoprotective properties of other omega-3-rich oils, such as fish oil.

Dietary fruits, vegetables, and their products appear to provide some protection against the direct impairment in endothelial function produced by high-fat foods, including olive oil”.

So now we know that fats and oils, even “healthy” olive oil, injure our endothelial cells, reducing the number of endothelial cells that can produce nitric oxide, which we need to protect our arteries from plaque. Tomorrow in the final part of the series, we will look at how to keep our endothelial cells healthy to prevent or reverse heart disease.

Resources:

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/what ... osclerosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10376195
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6pLRdawBw0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11079642

blade

Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#28  Post by blade » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:46 am

jimmylesante wrote:
Have you ever been sleepy after a high-fat meal? Why do you think that happens?

After protein and fat say lots of biltong (or beef jerky) to you Americans i just feel full for ages. After a packet of crisps and a few white bread rolls i feel sleepy after wards but i guessed this was from the sugar and carbs which spike my Insulin then drop it.
I guess fat and protein would take longer to digest and so more oxygenated blood pumped towards the stomach area would leave less oxygen for the rest of the body???
Or perhaps the vagus nerve in the stomach is activated more after eating which slows everything down?

right, dr levy talks about this, in a video on youtube about how protein takes longer to digest than carbs and when eaten together, ie from his site I did find this
http://www.peakenergy.com/articles/nh20 ... -Toxicity/

The way back to a normal gut

1. Proper food combining. The wrong foods together slow gut movement to a snail's pace.
2. Thorough chewing. Simple, but almost always overlooked.
3. Minimal fluid with meals. Your digestive enzymes need to be supplemented, not diluted.
4. Minimization (but not elimination!) of meat. Beyond a few ounces, it's almost impossible to thoroughly digest.
5. Minimize high glycemic index foods.
6. Completely avoid milk as beverage. Milk combines horribly with just about everything, while supplying vastly too much calcium.

but yeah, eating crisps(sugar) with protein/fat would still cause an insuln spike/. postprandial response which , as you thought, has to do with Amino acids going into the brain
vagus nerve? no

blade

Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#29  Post by blade » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:58 am

jimmylesante wrote:I hate to say it but maybe Blade has a good point in the fact that oils etc may only hurt your endothelial cells if you have a distinct lack of Vit C.

dont hate to say Im right, Im still clueless as to how lipids hurt the endohelium
but I always try to back up with what I say with facts
so Im not sure why you are suprised what I say is correct, as usual


but it does seem that providing the endothelium with enough vit C and E that you have less damage to the endo thelium
I still dont' know why fat hurts the enodthelum


but eventhat link I gave hows
Dietary fruits, vegetables, and their products appear to provide some protection against the direct impairment in endothelial function produced by high-fat foods, including olive oil”.
http://www.bethehealthyu.com/healthy-bl ... et-damaged

blade

Re: Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#30  Post by blade » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:09 am

jimmylesante wrote:Clearly you can tell i'm struggling to digest that ALL oils are bad for you

that's why I'm still trying to figure out why/how fat damages the endothelium/Endothelial progenitor cells?

ALl fats must have something in common?
Flow mediated dilatation (FMD), a largely endothelium dependent process, was depressed in normal subjects after a fat mea
FMD in normal subjects was depressed after a fat meal but this effect was prevented if vitamin C and E were given immediately prior

--cardiovascular research
http://cardiovascres.oxfordjournals.org ... t/43/2/308

or maybe we dont need to know why/how it happens, we just have to know it happens!
eat low fat has so many benefits, I see no benefits to eating high fat

like ornish tells us
Adopting a very-low-fat vegan diet for at least 1 year increased the intake of several dietary constituents that may reduce the risk of many chronic diseases such as
cancer, CVD, diabetes, and age-related macular degeneration, and decreased the intake of dietary components that have been implicated with an increased risk of these
health problems
http://www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-conten ... reases.pdf

and even this retarded dude tries to sum up
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Ornish_Diet.aspx


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