Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Oils/lipids are Good/Bad for Heart patients (from Letting PT slide)

Post Number:#1  Post by 89826 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:31 am

This is split from the "Let PT slide - faces bypass" topic. http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12074


On whether to have bypass surgery or not, have a look at heartattackproof.com, a website created by Caldwell Esselstyn, a physician at the Cleveland Clinic. You can make yourself heart attack proof in 3 weeks, the amount of time it takes for the endothelium to regrow. He also has several great lectures on YouTube.

But you must not eat any foods which injure the endothelium. So that means a plant-based diet with no oil.

This is not some Internet nonsense; he has demonstrated plaque reversal and saved the lives of many people so sick that they had been given death sentences-- they couldn't stand any more bypasses or stenting.

Here's some brief background on this approach. There are two different ways in which heart attacks occur: First, gradual stenosis (narrowing) of the pipes (arteries) feeding the heart. Much like a drain slowly becoming clogged. And due to plaque accumulation on the artery walls. (Pauling's idea is that those plaque deposits are patches on weakened arteries due to a lack of vitamin C.) That is the mechanism only about 10% to 15% of the time, and usually there are symptoms (chest pain) from the inadequate blood flow. However, the majority of the time, the pipes are fairly open and people are asymptomatic. But what happens is that the plaques rupture leading to thrombosis (clotting), and the blood supply is cut off.

Eating a plant-based diet helps on both fronts. If you don't eat any cholesterol, deposition on the artery walls is soon halted and the first mechanism is out of play. If you have a healthy endothelium, then the fragile plaques can't rupture because they are shielded from the blood rushing by. So the second mechanism is out of play also. I emphasize however, that compliance must be 100%. Half-hearted attempts, i.e. moderation, in this regard can be fatal.

Interestingly, vitamin C works to protect the endothelium. Arterial dilation (which the endothelium enables by releasing nitric oxide) is preserved after a high-fat, high-cholesterol meal by taking vitamin C right before.
Last edited by 89826 on Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blade

Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#2  Post by blade » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:09 am

89826 wrote:. If you don't eat any cholesterol, deposition on the artery walls is soon halted and the first mechanism is out of play. .

even if you don't eat any cholesterol, your live still makes a 1g/1000mg/day

89826 wrote:.
nterestingly, vitamin C works to protect the endothelium. Arterial dilation (which the endothelium enables) is preserved after a high-fat, high-cholesterol meal by taking vitamin C right before. .


what are you talking about?

what you said, "taking AA with a fatty meal allows the endothelim to keep working"sounds wrong so where you learned that post a link or do nothing and we can acknowledge you made an error



you suggest if I take vit C that my endothelium can still make NO?(nitric oxide is what the endothelium makes which allows for arterial dilation)


I would avoid eating fat with taking my vitamin C
the presence of lipid converts vitamin C from inhibiting to promoting acid nitrosation.(In absence of lipid, nitrosative stress was inhibited by ascorbic acid through conversion of nitrosating species to nitric oxide. ) This effect is attributable to the ability of vitamin C to assist in the generation of nitric oxide in the aqueous phase, which enables the regeneration of nitrosating species by reacting with oxygen in the lipid phase (96).
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/1.full.pdf
IE Fat transforms ascorbic acid from inhibiting to promoting acid‐catalysed N‐nitrosation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095705/

read about perks of low fat diets and increase of NO here
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Increas ... rally.aspx
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Low_Fat ... ction.aspx
Last edited by blade on Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

blade

Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#3  Post by blade » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:10 am

opps

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#4  Post by 89826 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:58 pm

This is an interesting crowd. I encourage googling to shine some light on these subjects. For people with heart disease, it can be life-saving.

For the delightfully skeptical blade, try "vitamin c endothelial function high fat meal". And "manners". I await your acknowledgment.

By the way, everyone over the age of 50 who has been eating the aptly named SAD (standard American diet) has heart disease and should be treated as such. Everyone.

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#5  Post by jimmylesante » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:41 am

And "manners".
:D :D oh dear here comes a hissy fit.

Interesting oil is bad, ALL oil. Perhaps if one was with equal amounts of the ratios 369? Generally we have to boost our 3's(which are anti-inflammatory??) as we have too much 6's which allegedly cause inflammation.
Although the Gerson Therapy perhaps is not geared to CVD it recommends flax seed oil. Would Esselstyn agree with that?

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#6  Post by Montmorency » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:29 am

jimmylesante wrote:
And "manners".


Interesting oil is bad, ALL oil. Perhaps if one was with equal amounts of the ratios 369? Generally we have to boost our 3's(which are anti-inflammatory??) as we have too much 6's which allegedly cause inflammation.


Personally I think coconut oil is good. I avoid all other oils, even olive.

In this respect I am influenced by Ray Peat. He's very anti-PUFAs. All PUFAs. He's not alone there. Pauling warns against them in in HTLLAFB, although perhaps he doesn't stress it as much as Peat would. (I don't think he mentions omega 3's - guess they weren't regarded as important then). Peat is controversial and often counter-intuitive. However, being controversial isn't necessarily a reason to ignore him. After all, Pauling was controversial, and remains so. Peat's "heresy" is that he doesn't go along with the omega 3 enthusiasm which almost everyone else seems to share. And he doesn't believe in the concept of "essential fatty acids". You'd have to read his online articles to really know why. Hard (for me) to summarise.

If you take an ancestral view of diet, I'm wondering where our ancestors would regularly get omega 3's if they were so important. Not all groups had access to oily fish. Would they have used seed oils? (or just seeds?). I wonder.

Although the Gerson Therapy perhaps is not geared to CVD it recommends flax seed oil. Would Esselstyn agree with that?


One of the problems with this (and probably even more with fish oils), is getting them and keeping them fresh.
And if they quickly oxidise within the body, are they actually such a good thing anyway?

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#7  Post by 89826 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:57 am

Jimmy, no reaction other than amusement.

All oils destroy the endothelium, which is the gateway to atherosclerotic heart disease. Fish get their omega 3's from plants.

There was a study done with African green monkeys. Five years, two groups, equal calories. One fed a diet high in saturated fat, the other olive oil. All along the way, their blood was tested and the olive-oil eaters showed just what you would hope for and even what you might have expected: higher hdl, lower ldl, lower triglycerides. Nothing but good news. After five years, poor bastards were killed and autopsied. Both groups showed the same massive atherosclerosis. Don't hear much about that study from the olive-oil industry.
Last edited by 89826 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blade

Debate: Oils are Good/Bad for Heart Patients (From Let PT Slide post)

Post Number:#8  Post by blade » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:32 am

89826 wrote:Both groups showed the same massive atherosclerosis. Don't hear much about that study from the olive-oil industry.


what is atherosclerosis?
build up of lpa/cholestrol, right?
isnt that caused more by lack of VitC rather than oil/fat?
why would fat/oil cause atherosclerosis?

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#9  Post by Montmorency » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:27 pm

89826 wrote:Jimmy, no reaction other than amusement.

All oils destroy the endothelium, which is the gateway to atherosclerotic heart disease. Fish get their omega 3's from plants.

There was a study done with African green monkeys. Five years, two groups, equal calories. One fed a diet high in saturated fat, the other olive oil. All along the way, their blood was tested and the olive-oil eaters showed just what you would hope for and even what you might have expected: higher hdl, lower ldl, lower triglycerides; nothing but good news. After five years, poor bastards were killed and autopsied. Both groups showed the same massive atherosclerosis. Don't hear much about that study from the olive-oil industry.


But would an African green moneky, left to itself in the wild, normally consume much saturated fat or olive oil?

You can easily kill a rabbit or a guinea pig by feeding it cholesterol, but cholesterol isn't a normal part of their diet.

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#10  Post by 89826 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:03 pm

Mont, not sure of your point. Experiment was done on Green African monkeys to illuminate effects on humans. They are the most widley used primates to conduct cardiovascular experiments. Basically impossible and unethical to force or control the diet of humans.

blade

Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#11  Post by blade » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:37 pm

89826 wrote:blade, can't quite tell if you are genuinely curious or want to argue. Plaques are composed of fat and cholesterol.

right

I thought PT prevented Atherosclerosis ?

or was it Arteriosclerosis?

Arteriosclerosis is hardening of the arterties and Atherosclerosis is a build up of fat/cholestrol in the artery

I dont understand what exactly oil does to cause bad stuff?
just like I don't understand why egwhites are off limits according to esseytlun, yet dean ornish, also a low fat guru, says eggwhites are ok




PT prevents which one? I think its arteriosclerosis
Isnt there a link to a page on this forum that tells me how to have the best heart health and why that is?(Im looking for something to share with people who have questions and want to understand MOA before they just blindly follow.)

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#12  Post by 89826 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:59 am

Calcified plaques are older and more stable. They don't rupture very readily, so don't lead to sudden thrombosis. In other words patients usually have symptoms (warning signs) of ischemia.

Vitamin K2 appears to redirect calcium out of tissue (arteries) and into bones, where it belongs.

Animal protein (e.g. egg whites and eggs) damages the endothelium. A damaged endothelium is a first step in newer, softer plaques rupturing. Esselstyn's emphasis is avoiding all foods which damage the endothelium, which means eating plant foods. No meat, fish, fowl, dairy foods, or oils.

Pauling's idea was that because humans don't make vitamin C (unlike virtually all other creatures), we almost all suffer from subclinical scurvy. Our bodies are 70% tissue (the rest is bone), and vitamin C is essential to the synthesis of collagen (tissue). Atherosclerotic plaques are repair patches on arteries (tissue) weakened by not enough vitamin C in our blood. This idea explains a couple of things which traditional cardiology can't: why don't other animals with very high levels of cholesterol have heart disease. Bears famously have levels of 600 but no heart attacks. The answer is they make their own vitamin C and so have strong arteries. So no patches and no rupturing patches. The second thing is that the vast majority of plaque deposition occurs near the heart and neck. Why those two regions and not throughout the entire network of blood vessels (10,000 miles!) in our bodies? The answer is that the mechanical stresses on the blood vessels are the greatest there: pulsatile stresses from the beating heart and stresses from the bending and twisting neck.

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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#13  Post by jimmylesante » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:18 am

This is an interesting thread.
Olive oil i don't touch, particularly alleged "extra virgin olive oil" as it is misrepresented terribly.
I'm sure the bears don't eat McDonalds and biscuits etc as well. Do animals die when their vitamin C runs out??
I guess normally we'd avoid eating large amounts of oils in the wild. Gerson avoided aromatic oils but allowed the flax seed? More research for me :)
Who's this guy Norman Walker? Lived to 117 using juices.

blade

Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#14  Post by blade » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:48 am

89826 wrote:Animal protein (e.g. egg whites and eggs) damages the endothelium. A damaged endothelium is a first step in newer, softer plaques rupturing. Esselstyn's emphasis is avoiding all foods which damage the endothelium, which means eating plant foods. No meat, fish, fowl, dairy foods, or oils.
.


ok I read this, that animal protein "damages" the endothelium"
how does it do that? ie what exactly gets damaged?

Esselstyn says no egg whites yet similar low fat, low protein, plant foods gurus says eggwhites are fine, ie dean ornish/Pritikin
I'm not understanding what's going on? why can't the "gurus" reach the same conclusions?

I need to know what's going on on a cellular level, so I can get past the vague, intangible parent-figure who shakes a finger at us from somewhere and says "No, no DONT EAT THAT!"
It's like my parents telling me as a kid, eat your veggies! without a reason why other than "BECAUASE I SAID SO!"
(funny as I tell them what to eat now and I give them clear reasons why eat that)

So I'm looking for a cause of what's going on, I'm not trying to just "fight"
let me explain

I'm aware to be "healthy", ie low risk for ANYTHING to happen to you,
1st you must get unfat---low BMI and/or low Bodyfat level....
I've read a lot of studies and whenever you get fat you are more prone to diabetes, Hypertension, well death ie shown by this survery
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530540

Once you get unfat the likelyhood of death from some "natural cause" falls to low levels, assuming you arent a smoker"

so even when you are not fat,Vascular disease is one of the biggest killers(aside from
smoking related DZs)

so what's going on in the artery to cause clogging/calcification?

-->I'd like to actually know what's going on rather than have "faith" eating protein and/or sugar ladden foods are going to kill me"

This study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed
Vascular effects of a low-carbohydrate high-protein diet(a low vit C diet)
seems to tell me the cons of eating protein
--a diet of fat/protein(low carb) seems to reduce number of endothelial progenitor cells(ie cells that will regenerate the endothelial lining, the lining that makes Nitric oxide that we need to be healthy, ie http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/1.full.pdf (this study explains why Nitrix oxide is so freakin important, that it kills cancer, helps regulate blood pressure

so that's what's wrong? a low carb diet is hurting me because of a decrease/no vit C and no/low numbers of EPCs(Endothelial progenitor cells )
Endothelial progenitor cells are inversely related to tumors/matasis of cancer,..go look at that study about NO killing cancer...
you want as many EPCs as you can, large numbers of them help the odds of you not having a heart attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endotheli ... nitor_cell
and that's what's wrong with a low carb diet
nothing, eating a low carb diet is fine, if you do it like sam does in this example

bob eats large steak(2 carbs,~20g protein, 12G fat)
sam eats nothing:
sarah eats 3cups spinach. 25grams eggs 25g onions, 50gramsbroccoili(total carbs 75g)

so which one won't injure their endothelium?
Sam duh
bob will have some endothelium damage

is this due to animal protien? or fat?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed
ApoE−/− mice maintained on a standard chow diet (SC) (65% carbohydrate, 15% fat, 20% protein) develop small amounts of atherosclerosis. In contrast, ApoE−/− mice on the so-called ‘Western’ diet (WD) (43% carbohydrate, 42% fat, 15% protein, and 0.15% cholesterol) develop extensive aortic atherosclerosis including complex plaques similar to those seen in humans

seems to be because of fat
fat damages the endothelium
protein and fat go hand in hand when eating animals
which is why low carbdiets, like atkins, damage the endothelium because of high fat
eat more veggies for carbs/to be full.
and a low fat diet along with other changes(mediation/exercise/stress reduction/chronic masturbation) can help increase teleomerease activity
http://www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-conten ... omeres.pdf



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Re: Let PT slide, now faces heart by-pass

Post Number:#15  Post by 89826 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:33 am

Blade, the answers to the questions I think you are asking lie in what you wrote. Animal foods and protein damage endothelial progenitor cells. Eating fat leads to claudication because blood cells have a very slight negative charge to prevent clumping (clotting). (Remember that opposites repel.) When you eat fat, it coats the cells and reduces the strength of the repulsive force, so clumping occurs.

Eggs and egg whites are not plant foods- they are animal foods. As far as I am aware, Esselstyn is the first to emphasize so heavily that having a healthy endothelium is critical to maintaining cardiovascular health. I think I have heard Ornish say that fish oil is good for you. (That may be true wrt lipid profiles. But you are after healthy arteries, not good numbers.) Esselstyn disagrees because it damages the endothelium. They otherwise agree on so much.

I suffered a heart attack some years ago- almost kicked the can. My strategy is to employ everything sensible in fighting against this. So Pauling therapy, plant-based diet with no oil, vitamins K2 and E, and intermittent fasting.

Why is the endothelium so damn important? It has two main functions: first it provides a very low coefficient of friction for the walls of our blood vessels. You want the work of the pump, the heart, to be as little as possible. As I wrote before, we have 10,000 miles of blood vessels within us- a mind-blowing number I think. It is like Teflon for our artery walls. The second function is that it releases nitric oxide, a vasodilator. Our physiology is an incredibly beautiful system: when we are exerting ourselves and need more blood and oxygen to our muscles, the pump (heart) beats faster and the pipes (blood vessels) get bigger! Additionally, when you stand up and gravity has a more direct pull on your blood, your blood pressure would fall and you would faint, except that the pipes constrict to maintain adequate pressure.


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