Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#1  Post by Robaltap » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:41 pm

Hello,
My 84 years old grandmother is on Pauling Therapy for more than a year now & besides some problems with gallstones & abdominal pain (it was occasional for several years, then often, then recently almost disappeared) she felt pretty well until recently. Unfortunately we are puzzled now with her pulse rate that gone up to ~100-120 beats per minute more than a week ago & still keeps being that high. She takes a lot of VC (we try to give her about 2500mg each hour or so & what interesting is that it doesn't hit bowel tolerance), Taurine, L-lysine, B-100, Iron (she has low hemoglobin), D&K, B-6, Niacin, Potassium, Magnesium, Glycin & Q10. She also tried to take some beta-blockers again for couple of days now (we quit taking them for a long time as Owen & Johnwen adviced here & it was all good), but it didn't made any difference so I guess we'll quit them (gradually) again.
What interesting is that she feels completely ok most of the time (some heart pain is there several times a day, but don't last for long) & doesn't even understand why we are so worried about her pulse. I saw her great improvement on VC & looks like it was the main cure for her abdominal pain wich almost disappeared now. As I wrote in other topic here - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11994 - when she was diagnosed with gallstones it was also discovered that she has "something" in her intestine, cecal polyp or even tumor wich requires further diagnostic but at her age and low pain threshhold that she had all her life there's really no options for us to know 100% what it is. What interesting is that the pain is actually gone for some time already (before pulse gone high) & as I wrote already she was all ok until this recent pulse rate change. I'm sorry but I also would like to note that a week or so ago, couple of days before the pulse gone that high, she noticed the change in the smell of urine - it became very strong (now the smell is not that strong but still more noticable than before (& there were no changes in the diet & water consumption). Also there was very strong pain in the small of the back for couple of days, but it can be just a coincidence.
Doctors came to see her & did EKG - everything is ok, her heart is ok & there's no bad changes & their main theory again is that the cause is that "mass" in her intestines. So I would be appreciated for any thoughts & advice on this. I'm not professional but is it possible that she indeed had a tumor in her intestines & her daily intake of VC started to cure her so at first her pain gone & then the tumor started to "break down" & come out naturally & that's why her urine smell changed & heart started to pump faster in order to remove it (take it out) of her body (like Herxheimer Reaction)?
Thank you!

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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#2  Post by Johnwen » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:56 pm

Tachycardia and Strong smelling urine usually points to an overactive thyroid.

See if you can get her doc to check it.
If all he’ll do is a TSH a low number (less then Point eight) would indicate it’s overactive.
A complete panel would show a lot more though.

At her age she probably won’t even notice the extra energy but her body would respond to the extra.
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#3  Post by Robaltap » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:37 pm

Johnwen wrote:Tachycardia and Strong smelling urine usually points to an overactive thyroid.


Thank you for the respond, Johnwen! We'll do the tests. Any ideas why is it overactive? Can it be from the drugs or supplements, like too much iron or something like that? I mean can we help her instantly by changing anything in supplements and/or diet?

I'm also reading right now about Vitamin K2 (mk4, menatetrenone) & it's effect on thyroid (it's derived from soy) - so I wonder could her megadose intake of this vitamin (she was taking 45mg for some time because of her heart valve calcification) be the cause of overactive thyroid (or did I get everything wrong & it is the absence of this vitamin in her diet that made it worse now)?

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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:35 am

My lay thoughts are that something has interfered with kidney function, creating the more concentrated urine. If your theory is correct, the breakdown of a tumor mass may have put some stress on the kidneys (and liver). A uric acid test would be interesting too :-)

When Linus Pauling suffered his "always fatal" kidney disease at age 40, he discovered a couple of things. A) He reduced his protein to almost nil while fighting the condition (the medical advice at the time was to take in more protein), and B) he found that drinking more water reduces the work the kidney has to do. Keep her hydrated.

As far as the heart beat, I noticed you supplement potassium. That may be playing with fire. How much?
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:34 am

OK! Since it seems there is other schools of thought on what could be her problem! I’ll present some studies I found that clarify my suspicions of a thyroid problem. They also give some suggestions on how to get things stabilized once this condition is confirmed. I also included one that covers it’s effects on intestinal tumors.
Hope it helps!

https://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/c ... thyroidism

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/23/1/22.full

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/116/15/1725.full

This one is a PDF on tumors.

http://www.carcinoid.org/sites/default/ ... tumors.pdf
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#6  Post by Robaltap » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:59 pm

Owen, Johnwen, thank you for the respond! We'll do the tests & I'll read the articles.

Yes, she takes potassium, this one http://www.vitacost.com/now-foods-potas ... owder-8-oz but she takes about 1/8 tsp once or twice a day (mostly once), there was the time we gave it to her like 2-4 times a day (same 1/8 tsp), but then someone told us to be more cautious with it & so we cut it to once a day. But according to what I've read so far & daily value - it is not that much (even if it is 2-4 time a day of 1/8 tsp)? Or I'm wrong & we should quit it?

As for protein & water - I doubt that she has too much of both daily, since her diet is still primarily consists of carbohydrates (she refuses to change that) & her water intake is not that much too, unfortunately. I'm constantly tying to convince her to drink more water & substitute at least half of carbohydrates with legumes or something, but with no succes yet.

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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:00 am

johnwen - that is 365 mg of potassium (or chloride) and if they get it wrong, maybe double that! Your thoughts?

If she cannot stay hydrated, you cannot help her all that much.
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#8  Post by Johnwen » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:56 am

Yep! She needs to stay Hydrated !

However when it comes to potassium the RDA is 4700mg. So 375mg. Or double that amount isn’t going to have any adverse effects.
How about a wrapped Baked Potato medium, size gives you about a 1000mg.
Of potassium!!

Hyperkalemia or excess serum potassium in a person with normal kidney’s don’t usually come into play till a person takes in about 18 Grams of potassium supplement for a period of time. Now with her age and decreased kidney function as long as she stays within the RDA she shouldn’t have any problems.

As far as chloride it has, “No known toxicity factor,” per the powers to be!
However most of the other knowledgeable people say not to over do it and limit daily intake to 750mg.!
Since it’s excreted rapidly but again by the kidneys so it should be watched!

Now if she has metabolic alkalosis with decreased breathing capabilities she would need to monitor her intakes of both and get her blood tested at regular intervals. But if she’s had blood tests and a urine test recently and all came back normal, neither should be a problem at these levels being talked about here.
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:11 am

Question oh wise one... If the RDA for potassium is around 5 g, why are products restricted to something like 90 milligrams?

I don't know the dosage of potassium that her doctor prescribed for my cousin, a woman in her 60s, but she was on vacation and almost died in a hospital from excess potassium.
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#10  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:00 pm

This is a very multi-faceted question but the simplest answer, that would cover all of it is one simple word “Balance!”

In your body there is a tightly controlled system of balancing electrolytes and the two controlling parts are the kidney’s and the adrenal’s .

If one of these isn’t doing their job properly an imbalance can occur which can have mild to severe symptoms and consequences.

This become’s more apparent when a person try’s to correct this and overloads the system with one of the elements and creates a imbalance.

This imbalance situation increased in the early 2000’s when the finger pointed at Sodium (salt) as a cause of high Blood Pressure. Which caused people to start substituting Sodium with potassium or using potassium supplements to off set the effects of sodium and as you might have guessed started to die from high potassium intake. So the powers bumped their heads together and set a regulation that says if you want more then 100mg. Of potassium you need to get a script from your doc. With the idea the doc would order a blood test to check your electrolytes and then make a educated decision if you need it or not. So supplement manufactures reduced their levels to 99mg. To comply with this.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/c ... fr=201.306

In your cousin’s case my suspicions would be that her kidney’s weren’t doing their job properly. Since it’s a known fact that kidney function starts to take a nose dive after the age of sixty. Which then meant the excess she was consuming wasn’t exiting the way it should have.
My thoughts also go to that she probably was taking a Potassium chloride supplement such a K-Lor which also kicks her chloride levels up which causes another imbalance and being on vacation probably wasn’t consuming enough fluids or the wrong types of fluids which further slowed the process of elimination. Being a female probably of lesser body mass and maybe laying out in the sun or running around trying to do everything in one day which caused he body to sweat and loose more sodium then normal and bang she’s out of balance and down she goes.
As you can see how these speculative factors all accumulate and cause some serious consequences.

Hope this helps in your understanding of this situation and what may seem as a minor imbalance can increase in a short period of time to be a serious reaction.

When it comes to electrolytes, “Balance,” is the name of the game!

Here’s a link on potassium that show’s what it does and how it does it!

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals ... ium#safety
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#11  Post by Robaltap » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:28 pm

Very interesting. So we should watch the tests & take it within RDA & without chloride, I guess.
We are waiting for the tests results now, should be ready very soon. Also, I forgot to mention that my gramdmother has this interesting salt cravings from time to time (well, most of the time, she feels like all the meal doesn't have enough salt & asks for it), I guess it is somehow related to potassium & if yes then it means that she really needs it (potassium)?
And thanks again for all the information & advices! Happy holidays to everyone! :)

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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:55 am

Putting 2 and 2 together, johnwen points out that poor kidney function, a fact after age 60, can lead to the build up of potassium with potentially dire consequences. The thick smelly urine sounds like a kidney malfunction, unless it is dehydration. Medicine controls potassium supplementation because people were DYING. And she craves salt!

Our blood stream has the identical sodium concentration as the oceans. Potassium?

There is an excellent way to get sodium. As Dr. David Brownstein teaches, in his book SALT, unrefined sea salt contains something like 80 trace minerals and can be thought of as a health food.


Why do you think she needs potassium supplementation?

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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#13  Post by Johnwen » Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:02 pm

Now were going to get techy about her tachy problem!!

In one of my previous posts here I mentioned thyroid and adrenals as possible causes.
The thyroid is the easiest to get tested and treat.
So it should be checked first!
The adrenals on the other hand is a more complex and time sensitive test, as I’m sure Owen can attest to! However if the thyroid checks OK then we must move on to look at them.

The adrenals produce another hormone that can have an effect on all this that being Aldosterone.
A lot of the symptoms she is experiencing are listed in the following links.

Once again let’s see what the thyroid is doing first then we can look at if it’s function is being affected internally or from an outside source.



Here’s the links:

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/aldosterone/

http://potsgrrl.blogspot.com/p/what-is-pots.html

http://potsgrrl.blogspot.com/p/what-is- ... rt-ii.html



Dr. David Brownstein in his books talks about how this hormone is affected by salt intake and other factors.
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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#14  Post by Robaltap » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:46 am

We received the tests & it looks like thyroid is ok:
T4 - 78,3 nmol/l (reference 62-151) Test-system Total T4 Architect
TSH hypersensitive - 1,3 mcIU/ml (reference 0,35-4) Test-system TSH Architect
T4 free - 12,6 pmol/l (reference 9-19,1) Test-system Free-T4 Architect

And both other tests (urine, blood) look good too as her doctor told us: sugar is ok, hemoglobin still less than normal, but it raised again in comparison with previous tests (she takes iron), cholesterol is good too. The only thing that doctor noted is that her red blood cells/erythrocytes is less than supposed to be, but not too much.
So we still puzzled with her high pulse rate & even though I wrote earlier that she feels good & don't even notice (most of the time) her high pulse she still has pain in heart from time to time & also sometimes kind of "visual fatigue", I don't know how to describe this, but she often closes her eyes when watching TV or something like that & when we ask her how she feels she's saying that she's ok & just "tired to watch and it feels better with eyes closed", so I wonder what could that mean?

Also we decided to quit taking vitamins D & K2 for several days in order to see if it will affect the pulse since I've read in one book that some people had rushing heart from too much vitamin K-2 (MK-7) & even though she takes MK-4 we still decided to try this (her D supplements contain K-2 too).

About salt - thank you for the advice, we'll try sea salt & see if this can be beneficial. By the way, do I understand it right that sodium in sodium ascorbate (like in this one http://www.vitacost.com/nutribiotic-buf ... wder-16-oz) is not the one that can be used as salt source, since it is different?

And one thing that I forgot to mention is that her pulse on each hand is differs pretty much from each other, like 109 on one hand & 79 on another etc. & it is this way all these 3 weeks already, plus heavy tachycardia (like 3-4 fast beats, then silence, couple of normal beats, then again several fast beats etc).

We will check her adrenals now as Johnwen suggested.
Thank you!

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Re: Pulse rate raise up to 100-120 for a week already

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:44 am

I am no expert, but where is the T3 number? (I guess the TSH indicates that it is probably okay, Johnwen?)

I look forward to johnwen explaining how the "pulse" can actually be different on different hands :)

Again, since you are willing to experiment, can you explain why you feel she needs so much potassium supplementation and have you tried reducing it to see what happens?
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