high lpa, trying new drug

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#1  Post by TommyTurtle » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:58 pm

I tried Niacin before Lysine and Proline. Prior to any supplementation my Lp(a) levels were 610 mm/L

I trialled Niacin 1.5g plus Vit C 5.0g

After 10 weeks my Lp(a) dropped around 60% to 260 mm/L. Niacin can be very effective if you have low molecular weight Lp(a). Not effective for high molecular weight Lp(a). Best way to find out is by trialing.

Niacin is very cheap. Some people don't like the flushing, however it isn't dangerous. I'm expecting that the lowering of Lp(a) will assist in stopping progression of CVD. Now also supplementing with Lysine, Proline, Citrulline, Magnesium, K2, MSM

Very suspicious of Niacin trials conducted by pharma companies. They have a vested interest in debunking the effectiveness of Niacin. Their recent trials look at Niacin in conjunction with statins, not Niacin by itself (you actually don't need the statins). Previous trials of Niacin alone have established effectiveness for most people

I have dropped to 18% body fat, targeting 15% through increasing lean mass (i.e. Losing fat at same rate as building muscle). Fully agree with your advice re weight

I would avoid any new drug like the plague. They all have adverse side effects, often as bad as the disease or condition they are treating.

In addition to above I am increasing corollary heart circulation (creating additional blood vessels to nourish the heart) by high intensity interval training. Don't go crazy initially but build over time. The heart isn't just nourished by arteries alone but a myriad of blood vessels. Exercise assists in building supplementary blood supply so not dependent on a few arteries

There's stuff we can't control, so concentrate on what you can (which is plenty).

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:15 am

zarfas wrote:And no matter how far or how fast you run, your risk of premature death could drop by 40 percent by taking up the activity.


Long-term physical exercise and lipoprotein(a) levels in a previously sedentary male and female population.

Abstract

We investigated the effect of long-term physical exercise on serum lipoprotein(a) levels. 21 sedentary men and 15 sedentary women were trained three to four times a week with increasing intensity during 9 months. After 24 weeks all subjects ran a 15 km race and after 36 weeks a half marathon run (21 km). Blood samples were drawn before the training programme, 5 days before both races and 5 days after the half marathon run. Median (interquartile range) pre-training values in the male group were 32 (11-63) mg/L and in the female group 65 (23-199) mg/L. After 24 weeks of training, serum lipoprotein(a) concentrations had risen significantly in both male and female groups. Moreover, after 36 weeks of training, in preparation for the half marathon competition, median serum lipoprotein(a) rose almost twofold in both groups and was still elevated 5 days later. This study demonstrates that an exercise programme which includes running of increasing distances significantly increases serum lipoprotein(a) concentration.


At the old TrackYourPlaque there were the following strategies for high Lp(a):

Lipoprotein Checklist: Lipoprotein(a)

Lipoprotein(a)

Lipoprotein (a), or Lp (a) (read “L–P little a”) is a powerful and underappreciated cause of heart disease. Up to 20% of people with heart disease will have increased Lp(a). It can trigger heart attacks early in life, as early as 40s or 50s. Lp (a) also magnifies dangers of other abnormalities.

Several studies have shown that LDL cholesterol assumes greater importance when Lp(a) is present. In the Track Your Plaque approach, we aim for an LDL of 60 mg/dl or an LDL particle number (NMR) of 600–700 nmol/l or apoprotein B of 50–60 mg/dl. LDL values in these ranges seem to provide greater protection than conventional targets (e.g., LDL 100 mg/dl).

Small LDL particles hugely magnify risk when Lp(a) is present. We therefore aim to eliminate small LDL particles in order to effectively treat this pattern. A useful goal is to reduce small LDL to <10% of total LDL. Another interesting aspect of the small LDL question is that LDL particle size and Lp(a) particle size seem to be connected to each other. In other words, when small LDL is present, Lp(a) is also small and may pose greater risk. This may provide another reason to eliminate small LDL, since eliminating small LDL may make Lp(a) less harmful.

Treatment of Lp(a) therefore requires attention to other abnormalities, as well, particularly LDL cholesterol and small LDL.

Lipoprotein(a) is reduced by:

  • Niacin is the most effective direct treatment for Lp(a). However, higher doses may be required than for other abnormalities like low HDL or small LDL. The niacin preparations we favor are prescription Niaspan® (Kos Pharmaceuticals) or over-the-counter Slo-Niacin® (Upsher-Smith). Both are better tolerated than over-the-counter “immediate-release” niacin, which tends to cause intolerable hot flushing. However, immediate-release niacin is otherwise safe but should not be taken more frequently than twice a day. All three preparations are very safe, with little risk of liver toxicity if taken properly. Total daily niacin doses of >500 mg should be taken with the supervision of a physician.
  • Estrogen in females may lower Lp(a) around 25%, though estrogen, of course, has other considerations that need to be fully discussed with your doctor. Testosterone can be helpful for men and reduces Lp(a) by 25%. We use testosterone cream with great success. (A common dose for men >50 years old is 50 mg twice per day of a topical cream; dosing is best based on blood levels and must be prescribed). For any hormonal preparation, we advise bio-identical human preparations, i.e, preparations that are identical to the human form, not Premarin® or other non-human forms.
  • L-carnitine can be a useful nutritional supplement; 2000–4000 mg per day (e.g., 1000 mg twice a day) can reduce Lp(a) 7–8%, and occasionally will reduce it up to 20%. The only drawback is cost; it can be pretty pricey. L-carnitine is not powerful enough to be used as sole treatment, however. It’s better as an adjunct with either niacin and/or hormones.
  • Ground flaxseed (2–3 Tbsp/day) exerts a modest effect of no more than 7% Lp(a) reduction, but it’s healthy effects on reducing LDL and perhaps small LDL make it a useful adjunct. Use it as a hot cereal or added to yogurt or other foods. The seeds must be ground (e.g., purchased ground or ground in your coffee grinder).
  • Almonds—Preferably raw or dry roasted (with no added ingredients like hydrogenated oils), ¼–1/2 cup/day, are our favorite, as they not only reduce Lp(a) but also reduce LDL and partly counteract the small LDL particle abnormality.
  • Vitamin C—1000–3000 mg/day, with reported reductions of approximately 7%.

Track Your Plaque target: If measured in nmol/l, <75 nmol/l is desirable. In mg/dl, <30 mg/dl is desirable. (However, because of the lack of standardization, “normal” values in your laboratory may vary, depending on the means of measurement; discuss with your doctor.)

Copyright 2006, Track Your Plaque.


In a later blog post Dr. Davis (July 01, 2010) added:

Treatments for Lp(a) include (in order of my current preference):

1) High-dose fish oil--We currently use 6000 mg EPA + DHA per day
2) Niacin
3) DHEA
4) Thyroid normalization--especially T3

Hormonal strategies beyond DHEA can exert a small Lp(a)-reducing effect: testosterone for men, estrogens (human, no horse!) for women.

In other words, there is no high-ticket pharmaceutical treatment for Lp(a). All the treatments are either nutritional, like high-dose fish oil, or low-cost generic drugs, like liothyronine (T3) or Armour thyroid.


For me only normalization of DHEA and testosterone brought Lp(a) down.

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#3  Post by TommyTurtle » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:17 pm

I've had persistently high LDL levels all my adult life at around 220. Nothing has been able to reduce this (until revently). My triglycerides are very low at 26 and HDL positive at 84. Recently had subtraction test which showed virtually no small dense LDL present despite high reading. Supposedly if you have a good HDL to Trig ratio you won't have SD LDL particles present.

Upon commencement of 5g Lysine and 2.5g Proline my LDL levels dropped 23% to 170 but my Lp(a) rose slightly. It appears the Lysine or Proline is binding to LDL.

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#4  Post by pamojja » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:02 am

That's been my Lp(a)s each half year during the last 7 years backwards (2016-2009) on about 23g vitamin C, 6g lysine and 2g proline for the last 8 years:

Code: Select all

51   -   34   36   59   34   43   -   46   64   66   52   46   48   57   -


<30 mg/dl range. Only a meager 11% improvement all these years. The better values always when serum DHEA and testosterone normalized.

However, also a 50% improvement with HDL, 47% in LDL and 28% with trigs, at the moment.

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#5  Post by pamojja » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:06 am

pamojja wrote:Only a meager 11% improvement all these years.

Actually can't know for sure, because I had started with Pauling's therapy, other supplements and diet interventions well before testing it for the first time. It might have been much higher.

zarfas wrote:Im not following the "graph", but have you gotton estradiol 20-30pg/ml?


As said, the numbers go from left to right from 2016 each half year back to 2009. Thase are the values for estradiol:

Code: Select all

46   -   21   -   32   -   -   -   34   13   <10   -   51   -   -   -


Highly fluctuating, but the mean is at 29 pg/ml.

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#6  Post by TommyTurtle » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:05 pm

Pamojja, have you had heart attack or stroke? Do you know your Coronary calcium score?

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:00 am

No heard attack or stroke. 'Just' a 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta bifurcation diagnosed as PAD 8 years ago, causing intermittent claudication (only a 3-400 meter pain-free walking distance) and a 60% government-certified disability due to this walking disability. With Pauling Therapy that improved very fast - 1hr after the first, 2 hrs the second, 1/2 hr due the a chronic bronchitis the third year, since then improving again, until in my 6th year it ceased - and have lost that disability again.

I never did a Coronary calcium since with that high a specific stenosis I had to consider myself in the highest risk-group for that condition anyway. And repeated scores would add to radiation-burden, while at the same time needing a good technician for consistent and therefore useful readings. Since CAC scores aren't routinely done for CVD where I live, that precondition wasn't a given.

Diagnosing cardiologists prognosed a 30% 5-year mortality despite all interventions they suggested, and I refused. Therefore I take being still alive 8 years later and getting better as my own kind of score.. :D

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#8  Post by TommyTurtle » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:57 am

That's a great success story Pamojja. You're empowered and defying the odds given by the traditional medical establishment

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#9  Post by guitarplayer007 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:11 pm

So Vitamin C therapy doesn't help reduce Lpa? My score last August was 59, the test says it should be under 30..I started Vitamin C therapy 5 weeks ago and having blood text in 2 weeks per cardiologist...He doesn't know I'm trying this protocol

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#10  Post by pamojja » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:41 pm

guitarplayer007 wrote:So Vitamin C therapy doesn't help reduce Lpa?


How you come to that conclusion? Because it didn't do in only one experience?

In science they usually do randomized controlled trials - RCT - to find the effectiveness of an agent. That means a randomly selected drug and control group get the drug or the inert placebo, without the scientist or study-participants knowing who is getting what. In the end they lift the blinding and compare how many got better or worse - with the drug tested against the placebo. Then for example maybe 10 got better in the drug group compared to 5 in the placebo group of a total of a 100 study participants. Would mean the drug is 100% better than placebo and will be marketed as such. Never mind either didn't help 85% of participants.

No agent helps all the time in all cases. That is just not how it works. Precondition are too various and multi-factorial. But that doesn't mean it couldn't in others. And there are indeed enough reports here where vitamin C lowered Lp(a). But without RCT we'll never know at what percentage.

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#11  Post by TommyTurtle » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:12 pm

The reason I take Vit C is to form strong & healthy arterial walls. Healthy arteries will prevent Lp(a) binding no matter what your level. Whilst it's a conjuctive strategy to also lower your Lp(a), it's not the main reason for Vit C therapy

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#12  Post by pamojja » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:58 am

pamojja wrote:No heard attack or stroke. 'Just' a 80% blockage..


Wait a minute, just had a brain MRI for investigation of remaining symptoms like a ME/CFS, where they reported (Google translate):

Old infarction in the left cerebellum hemisphere mediobasal belonging to the current region of the cerebellar artery posterior inferior (6/40-44) from ap up to 3 cm, tranversal up to 1 <cm and craniokaudal scarcely 2cm size in each largest diameter. Otherwise, the structure and signal behavior of the brain are regular. Regular diffusion ratios. Symmetrical, medium, normal wide supra- and infratentorial ventricular system. The external CSF spaces are normal. Virchow-Rubin's rooms in the typical places. Discretely diverging axes of the bulbi oculorum with closed eyelids. Otherwise the orbits and their contents are regular. Individual delicate mucosal swellings in several ethmoidal cells on the left more pronounced than on the right, and extremely faint on the left forehead. The remaining nasal sinuses and temporal bones on both sides are properly signalless.


Since I'm not aware of any stroke symptoms - except some occasional vision disturbances between 1992-2006 (for some 20 minutes flickering like the visual snow of an off-line TV at the focus, followed by paresthesia mostly in tongue and parts of the face) - I assume it to have been caused by one of my 4 falciparum malarias (often ending in the dangerous cerebral malaria; 1994-1995), or a complication after a nitrogen intoxication after my only dive down to 40 meters (1995)?

Probably will never know for sure.

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#13  Post by pamojja » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:44 pm

zarfas wrote:are you on aromastate inhibitors, TRT, or just gained/lost fat?


No to all 4.

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#14  Post by Johnwen » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:47 pm

Pamojja;

Sounds more like a Aura from a migraine to me!

Next time you get it pop a Tylenol or aspirin and see if it goes away in about 10min.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: high lpa, trying new drug

Post Number:#15  Post by pamojja » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:41 pm

pamojja wrote: - except some occasional vision disturbances between 1992-2006 (for some 20 minutes flickering like the visual snow of an off-line TV at the focus, followed by paresthesia mostly in tongue and parts of the face) -

Johnwen wrote:Pamojja;

Sounds more like a Aura from a migraine to me!

Next time you get it pop a Tylenol or aspirin and see if it goes away in about 10min.


Interesting, because since early childhood, when I had a lot of headaches, nowadays almost never. And rarely only the visual snow now. When it's recurring I'll try a aspirin I've around.

This started to happen when I was vegetarian in 3rd world countries for long times - where in available restaurants mainly meat was available - and me therefore on very restricted diets (like beans and tortillas or rice only), I rather suspected a deficiency.


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