On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#31  Post by ChuckArbogast » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:27 am

pamojja wrote:
ChuckArbogast wrote:I don't think I will measure pre-meal though, unless you think I should.


Only the first morning fasting is interesting, and the highest peak after each meal. Since you already know it's lower after 2 hours, about 1 hour after eating.


I kinda thought that reading was a little surprising as well.

Do you think Vitamin C would increase the glucose level?

Also, I just ate my first meal of the day (lunch), which was a very large salad with turkey. I measured my first drop of blood at 89 mg/dL and then I did a different spot on the same finger but used the second drop (like my manual says to do) and it measured 93 mg/dL. So, more than likely, it doesn't matter if I use the first drop or the second since they were so close to being the same.

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#32  Post by pamojja » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:44 am

I'm a bid baffled. Where do all your triglycerides come from, if not from high glucose spikes? If you have lab-results, how are your liver enzymes doing?

Allegedly some cheap glucose meters (probably not your case) do misread ascorbic acid in blood as glucose. Oven even tested how different vitamin C products would raise ascorbic acid in the blood this way. Usually it would be mentioned in the papers coming with the meter, and if it has such an affinity to ascorbic acid in the blood.

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#33  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:05 am

pamojja wrote:I'm a bid baffled. Where do all your triglycerides come from, if not from high glucose spikes? If you have lab-results, how are your liver enzymes doing?

Allegedly some cheap glucose meters (probably not your case) do misread ascorbic acid in blood as glucose. Oven even tested how different vitamin C products would raise ascorbic acid in the blood this way. Usually it would be mentioned in the papers coming with the meter, and if it has such an affinity to ascorbic acid in the blood.


My last blood work was done on 11/12/2018, so I guess it is possible that my triglycerides are a not as bad now as they were.

I'm not sure what to look for in my results for liver enzymes, so could you let me know what to look for?

This morning, my level was 84 mg/dL, which makes a bit more sense than yesterday morning. I also checked it 1 hour after my last meal yesterday (eggs and turkey sausage) and it was 90 mg/dL. I know that meal has almost no carbs whatsoever and larger amounts of fat, so I guess that is believable too.

Thanks for your help,
Chuck

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#34  Post by pamojja » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:34 am

Major liver enzymes would for example include:

Aspartate Aminotransferase, shorthand GOT or ASAT
Alanine Aminotransferase - GPT, ALAT
Gamma Glutamyl Transpeptidase - GGT
Alkaline Phosphatase - APH
Lactic Dehydrogenase - LDH

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#35  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:33 pm

pamojja wrote:Major liver enzymes would for example include:

Aspartate Aminotransferase, shorthand GOT or ASAT
Alanine Aminotransferase - GPT, ALAT
Gamma Glutamyl Transpeptidase - GGT
Alkaline Phosphatase - APH
Lactic Dehydrogenase - LDH

The tests I had done were Complete Lipid Panel, HGB A1C, CBC with differential, CPK and a Comprehensive Metabolic panel. The only test that might have some of what you are asking about was the Comprehensive Metabolic panel. Here is what it has:
SGPT (ALT): 28 U/L (16-61 U/L standard range)
SGOT (AST): 15 U/L (15-37 U/L standard range)
Alkaline Phosphatase: 60 U/L (45-117 U/L standard range)

Does that help any?

Also, my level tonight 1 hour after my dinner (large salad) & a decaf coffee with about 2 oz of creamer was 122 mg/dL. Since I had a similar salad the other day, my only guess would be the coffee with creamer. However, I did have some sweets today at work and I never measured after that until after my dinner. Could it be the sweets (aka bad food), that I had this morning at work still causing my levels to be high tonight? Is the reading of 122 mg/dL too high? I think you said below 140 previously. I know I had a lot more carbs today (mainly due to the sweets I had at work) than the previous days.

Again, thanks for all your help,
Chuck

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#36  Post by pamojja » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:38 am

Yes, sugary things are obviously the worst for blood glucose. For me even only a square of 80% chocolate after a meal can drive glucose 20-40 mg/dl higher. Once I analyzed my daily dietary intake, to find out where most carbs are still hidden. Turned out it was the milk in coffee and the daily apple. Therefore cut out the milk and the apple in half.

Your liver enzymes look good. However, on high dose niacin you anyway should always monitor your liver enzymes regularly, and better get GGT and LDH included next time. An APH below 70 could indicate a zinc deficiency. So keep monitoring, also because lab-test can quite fluctuate between different times.

Labtestanalyzer.com, an online service which tries to sieve through all the literature concerning all lab markers, mentions all these as possible culprits for higher trigs:

The most common causes of high triglyceride levels are:

Low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets [R]
Obesity [R]
Gum inflammation (periodontitis) [R]
Vitamin D deficiency [R]
Smoking [R]
High alcohol intake [R]
Type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome (abnormalities in metabolism due to insulin resistance and excess weight) [R]
Hypothyroidism [R]


Other, but less common, causes include:

Inflammation and infection [R]
Autoimmune diseases [R]
Familial dysbetalipoproteinemia (genetic disease that results in high triglyceride levels) [R]
Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) [R]
Chronic kidney disease [R]
Colon cancer [R]


Therefore also try to get serum vitamin 25(OH)D, CRP, kidney function (Creatinine, BUN, uric acid, GFR) and freeT3 tested by your GP next time. How was the ESR and Leukocytes from the CBC last time?

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#37  Post by pamojja » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:56 am

ChuckArbogast wrote:Is the reading of 122 mg/dL too high? I think you said below 140 previously.


I said, at least below 140 for those who have a really hard time getting it any lower. But everyone is different. If you're able to I would definitely shoot for below 100 after every meal as Dr. William Davis recommends to get triglicerides lower (if this hasn't been a one-time off measurement, or other causes are at work).

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#38  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:38 am

revisiting the original question

ChuckArbogast wrote:t is my understanding that Pauling Therapy should help get Cholesterol down to normal levels. However, my latest lab work shows that I am not down to normal levels. My total Cholesterol is 254 mg/dL, my calculated LDL is 184 mg/dL. I haven't been taking any statins but have been taking Pauling Therapy for a few years. Although I don't agree with the levels my cardiologist wants my LDL to be (<70 mg/dL), I do think that my current level may be too high, especially since I do have CVD. He wants me to go on a statin but I don't know what to do.


What we know from E. Ginter (as review by Linus Pauling in his 1986 book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER) is that vitamin C intake can predict cholesterol levels, which normalize to the ideal 180 mg/dl. (Those of us who have hit this set-point nail on the head after increasing our vitamin C are impressed by real science.) Your level of 254 is high, meaning the "fire" in your system exists, (barring a genetic abnormality, but then your cholesterol would be 300 or 400 mg/dl) or you are not taking enough "bioavailable" vitamin C. I like your protocol, but 8 grams of vitamin C may be only half, or even 1/3 of what your body requires. (I am reminded of one poster, with root canals, and dental work, who regularly took more than 100 grams of ascorbate orally per day.)
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#39  Post by ChuckArbogast » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:37 pm

pamojja wrote:Therefore also try to get serum vitamin 25(OH)D, CRP, kidney function (Creatinine, BUN, uric acid, GFR) and freeT3 tested by your GP next time. How was the ESR and Leukocytes from the CBC last time?

Thanks for the additional information.
There wasn't anything called ESR or Leukocyctes on my CBC, but the Metabolic Panel that has the SGPT and SGOT values did have Creatinine, BUN and eGFR. Those values from 11/12/18 were:
Creatinine: 0.88 mg/dL (0.67 - 1.17 mg/dL standard range values)
BUN: 10 mg/dL (7 - 18 mg/dL standard range values)
eGFR: 121 mL/min/1.73 sq meter (>=60 mL/min/1.73 sq meter standard range values)

Could there be other names for ESR and Leukocyctes? The CBC information on Neutrophils, Lymphocytes, Monocytes, Eosinophil, Basophils but I am not sure what those are for.

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#40  Post by ChuckArbogast » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:44 pm

ofonorow wrote: Your level of 254 is high, meaning the "fire" in your system exists, (barring a genetic abnormality, but then your cholesterol would be 300 or 400 mg/dl) or you are not taking enough "bioavailable" vitamin C. I like your protocol, but 8 grams of vitamin C may be only half, or even 1/3 of what your body requires. (I am reminded of one poster, with root canals, and dental work, who regularly took more than 100 grams of ascorbate orally per day.)

Owen,
Thanks for the information. You may have misread my Vitamin C intake. I take 8 grams first thing in the morning and another 8 grams about 1 hour before I go to bed. That is a total of 16 grams for the day. If I take more than 8 grams at one time, I do get diarrhea effect. Others have suggested taking more but it is more challenging for me to take it in powder form during the day at work. I may try to add more in pill form just during the day at work. I do have 2 fillings that need to be replaced with something other material that doesn't contain mercury. I also have 1 root canal but I'm not sure how to remove it since it is in one of my front teeth. I guess an implant would be the only option but that is very expensive.

Thanks again for any additional help,
Chuck

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#41  Post by pamojja » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:03 am

ChuckArbogast wrote:Could there be other names for ESR and Leukocyctes? The CBC information on Neutrophils, Lymphocytes, Monocytes, Eosinophil, Basophils but I am not sure what those are for.


ESR is Erythrocyte sedimentation rate, a marker for inflammation and usually included with a CBC. Leukocytes are simply white blood cells, while the one's your mentioning are simply sub-fractions of white blood cells. Anything off with those?

Your creatinine, BUN show absolutely no problems with the kidneys.

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#42  Post by ChuckArbogast » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:51 pm

pamojja wrote:
ChuckArbogast wrote:Could there be other names for ESR and Leukocyctes? The CBC information on Neutrophils, Lymphocytes, Monocytes, Eosinophil, Basophils but I am not sure what those are for.


ESR is Erythrocyte sedimentation rate, a marker for inflammation and usually included with a CBC. Leukocytes are simply white blood cells, while the one's your mentioning are simply sub-fractions of white blood cells. Anything off with those?

Your creatinine, BUN show absolutely no problems with the kidneys.


ESR, or its full name, isn't on the CBC with differential results I have. Not sure why they would not be included. My CBC does contain "WBC x 10*3", which I am guessing is White Blood Cells, but maybe not. If so, it is 7.9 K/uL (5-10 k/uL is normal range).
Here are the values of the ones I mentioned. Seems like one of them is a little high but not sure if that is an issue. The doctor never seemed to be bothered by it.
Segmented Neutrophils: 71% (51-67% normal range)
Absolute Neutrophils: 5.6 K/uL (doesn't provide a normal range)
Lymphocytes: 18 % (25 - 33 % normal range)
Absolute Lymphocytes: 1.5 K/uL (doesn't provide a normal range)
Monocytes: 8 % (4 - 12 % normal range)
Absolute Monocyte Count: 0.6 K/uL (doesn't provide a normal range)
Eosinophil: 3 % (1 - 3 % normal range)
Absolute Eosinophil: 0.2 K/uL (doesn't provide a normal range)
Basophils: 1 % (0 - 1 % normal range)
Absolute Basophil Count: 0.1 K/uL (doesn't provide a normal range)

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#43  Post by pamojja » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:20 am

Yes WBC are white blood cells. Again nothing really serious to write about. Slightly higher Neutrophils could indicate some slight infection or inflammation. Normal range for abs. neutrophils is 1.5-4.2.

One needs to understand that most doctors only are bothered by off lab values if they are that severe to be able to clearly diagnose and prescribe a medication, as done for high cholesterol with statins. Anything else, especially if there isn't anything to prescribe yet, they usually just watch and wait till it progresses to something diagnose- and prescribe-able, according to their receipt-book of standard of care. That's one reason they usually don't want to test Lp(a), since they anyway don't have any prescription meds against. And their only course of action is again only to prescribe statins in such a case anyway.

Also one needs to understands that 'normal' lab ranges are usually arrived at by calculating the mean 95% of all tested as 'normal', while the above and below 2.5% are considered as too high or too low. Which is just a statistical construct, and usually doesn't correlate to the mean 95% of the population being healthy. Quite contrary to that, most who get tested do so for some health issues to begin with. That's why most functional medicine docs use 'optimal' ranges instead of 'normal. Arrived at through clinical observation or specific studies.

However, most your lab-test seen till now are even optimal. That doesn't mean there is nothing, just that it hasn't been found yet. Therefore again, get serum vitamin 25(OH)D, CRP, and freeT3 tested by your GP next time. Also ask for a ESR next time as a next step.

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Re: On Pauling Therapy but my Cholesterol is too high for my Cardiologist

Post Number:#44  Post by ChuckArbogast » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:26 pm

pamojja wrote:Yes WBC are white blood cells. Again nothing really serious to write about. Slightly higher Neutrophils could indicate some slight infection or inflammation. Normal range for abs. neutrophils is 1.5-4.2.

One needs to understand that most doctors only are bothered by off lab values if they are that severe to be able to clearly diagnose and prescribe a medication, as done for high cholesterol with statins. Anything else, especially if there isn't anything to prescribe yet, they usually just watch and wait till it progresses to something diagnose- and prescribe-able, according to their receipt-book of standard of care. That's one reason they usually don't want to test Lp(a), since they anyway don't have any prescription meds against. And their only course of action is again only to prescribe statins in such a case anyway.

Also one needs to understands that 'normal' lab ranges are usually arrived at by calculating the mean 95% of all tested as 'normal', while the above and below 2.5% are considered as too high or too low. Which is just a statistical construct, and usually doesn't correlate to the mean 95% of the population being healthy. Quite contrary to that, most who get tested do so for some health issues to begin with. That's why most functional medicine docs use 'optimal' ranges instead of 'normal. Arrived at through clinical observation or specific studies.

However, most your lab-test seen till now are even optimal. That doesn't mean there is nothing, just that it hasn't been found yet. Therefore again, get serum vitamin 25(OH)D, CRP, and freeT3 tested by your GP next time. Also ask for a ESR next time as a next step.

Thanks again for all the help and information. I will try to get those items tested the next time I have blood work done.


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