Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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drtom
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Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#1  Post by drtom » Wed May 29, 2019 12:04 pm

Vitamin C supplementation along with proline and lysine makes sense from the standpoint of repairing damage done to coronary arteries, particularly the endothelium. I liked what Matthias Rath put out about this early in his career, but his current approach (correct me if I am wrong) is that micro nutrient deficiencies cause everything, which is GARBAGE.

More fundamental than collagen repair is to stop the inflammation that causes (or is a huge factor in developing) coronary arterial disease in the first place. As such, I have switched to a pure carnivore diet which does not have the inflammation created by refined and starchy carbs (including of course sugar). I feel better than I have in many years and other health problems have disappeared.

IMHO, eliminating these carbs is the most fundamental and important strategy to cut the risk of MI and stroke. The research bears this out (3 times LESS inflammation and other associated problems). This article discusses the fact that Vitamin C supplementation does not affect inflammatory markers (meaning does not lower them):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18427418

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Thu May 30, 2019 6:11 am

drtom wrote:This article discusses the fact that Vitamin C supplementation does not affect inflammatory markers (meaning does not lower them):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18427418


The problem with all vitamin C studies is of course that they only study insufficient doses - like the 2 g in this one - but never up to the 20 g spread throughout the day many of us take. Though even at that low dose it did find reduction in lipid peroxidation, which of course would reduce chronic inflammation in the long run. Not with 2 g over a 24 hr period, but certainly with 20 g/d over the years.

I don't say so out of pure speculation - with a lack of properly dosed studies - but by testing lipid peroxidation and inflammation markers and comparing it to varying intakes with varying inflammatory conditions over the last 10 years myself. No question that was aided greatly by elimination of refined carbs.

One also has to consider that each of us came to this with different and differently severe conditions. And in my severe case eliminating refined carbs alone would certainly not have sufficed.

Here a study with even only 1 gram per day vitamin C, but for 60 days, which did find a 25% reduction of CRP, the usually used marker for inflammation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631578/
Last edited by pamojja on Thu May 30, 2019 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Thu May 30, 2019 6:53 am

drtom wrote:More fundamental than collagen repair is to stop the inflammation that causes (or is a huge factor in developing) coronary arterial disease in the first place


A little bid the chicken and egg problem. Weak collagen stands for a weak endothelium which easily gets damaged, and where chronic inflammation is actually a healing response gone awry. Vitamin C contributes help at each of those stages.

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#4  Post by drtom » Fri May 31, 2019 8:15 am

Vitamin C supplementation in much greater doses than found in the diet does not seem to hurt in part because Vitamin C rapidly disappears from the blood stream (is used up). But recently I have had doubts about taking huge amounts to combat coronary artery disease (repair, prevention, etc.) and mental problems like Alzheimer's disease, anxiety and depression, etc. Inflammation is the underlying problem, which means that it is not nearly enough to just supplement with Vitamin C.

What I was trying to emphasize is that the CAUSE of much of the adverse inflammation that is responsible for so many of our diseases is from too much glucose being consumed too many times a day, whether by eating too much glucose (sugar) or food substances that are rapidly converted to glucose (starchy and refined carbs, grains, etc.). On the carnivore diet where there is little to no glucose consumption, the glucose that is generated from gluconeogenesis is sufficient for the body's needs and, as far as we know does not cause the damage that excessive amounts do. This article is very good about how the brain responds to this chronic glucose "bath" that most are exposed to in the Standard American Diet (SAD) and what we can do about it NOW:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... tal-health

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#5  Post by jimmylesante » Fri May 31, 2019 9:35 am

Drtom i agree with you it is not enough to just take a pill to heal chronic issues whether it is metformin or a vitamin.
One needs to reduce or stop the intial damage, mainly being done by sugars and trans fats.
Going carnivore may in the short term work but in itself may cause inflammation and other damage without the protective effects of fruit and vegetables.
Fruit provides exactly what the liver needs.
Vitamin C reduces inflammation and should be taken daily, preferably with fruit or vegetables.

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#6  Post by johnjackson » Fri May 31, 2019 1:36 pm

jimmylesante wrote:Going carnivore may in the short term work but in itself may cause inflammation and other damage without the protective effects of fruit and vegetables.

not at all
a keto or "carnivore" diet has very little nutrition and is a lot higher in fat than simply eating a high starch diet(not man made foods) that is loaded with nutrients AND very little fat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyRuDpqYuvY

Dr. McDougall Webinar: The Dietary Treatment of Cancer

the best diet is one that is high in carbs, but carbs from natural foods. ie fruits/veggies

btw, the keto diet is very deceptive in terms of "weight loss
stored sugar, glycogen, holds water

when you stop eating sugar/carbs, you lose this water, so you lose water weight.
/www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12154.php


medcraveonline.com/JCCR/JCCR-09-00341.php

//riordanclinic.org/2014/02/high-dose-intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-successful-treatment-of-viral-infections/

lpa
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/lipoprotein_a.html

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Fri May 31, 2019 2:59 pm

drtom wrote:Vitamin C supplementation in much greater doses than found in the diet does not seem to hurt in part because Vitamin C rapidly disappears from the blood stream (is used up).


Well, the only study to my knowledge done on patients on long-term supplementation of 20 grams per day found otherwise:

The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).


The usual reference range for plasma ascorbic acid is 0.4-2.0 mg/dL, which is about 22.7-113.6 µmol/L. While the majority of the population is even below 1 mg/dl, mega-dosers in this study had up to 9.1 mg/dl. Though it is also true that mega-dosers would take 220 times more ascorbic acid than the general populations, that doesn't mean it is cleared fast enough, to not still be 10 times higher at any time than in the general population. But the better, even the long-term glucose measurement of HbA1c, glycated hemoglobin (GHB) - in your eyes the sole driver of CVD - reduced about 1.6% in mega-dosers compared to non-supplementation in this study!!!

drtom wrote:What I was trying to emphasize is that the CAUSE of much of the adverse inflammation that is responsible for so many of our diseases is from too much glucose being consumed too many times a day, whether by eating too much glucose (sugar) or food substances that are rapidly converted to glucose (starchy and refined carbs, grains, etc.).


I understood. Though in my case I have the rare circumstance that my 80% stenosis of the main aorta is the exception. All my other arteries are clear of plaque. Incidentally had a spinal-cord-infection exactly at that same height 20 years ago, which would explain why only that spot of the aorta got damaged. And indeed, there are so many numerous other causes to damage to the endothelium than just sugar, I will add such a list here to ponder from a blog post by an MD (and cholesterol sceptic):

What factors can lead to the situation where damage outstrips repair? First, we need to look at those factors that increase the rate of damage. There are many, many, things that can do this. Here is a list. It is non-exhaustive, it is in no particular order, but it may give you some idea of the number of things that can cause CVD, by accelerating endothelial damage:

Smoking
Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
Use of oral steroids
Cushing’s disease
Kawasaki’s disease
Rheumatoid arthritis
High blood pressure
Omeprazole
Avastin
Thalidomide
Air pollution
Lead (the heavy metal)
Mercury
High blood sugar
Erythema nodosum
Rheumatoid arthritis
Low albumin
Acute physical stress
Acute mental stress
Chronic negative mental stress
Chronic Kidney Disease
Dehydration
Sickle cell disease
Malaria
Diabetes/high blood sugar level
Bacterial infections
Viral infections
Vitamin C deficiency
Vitamin B deficiency
High homocysteine level
Chronic kidney disease
Acute renal failure
Cocaine
Angiotensin II
Activation of the renin aldosterone angiotensin system (RAAS) etc.

Blimey, yes, that list was just off the top of my head, I could get you another fifty without much effort. And no, I did not just make it up. I have studied every single one of those factors, and many more, in exhaustive detail. The extent of how many factors there are, should not really come as a surprise to anyone, but it usually does.


By the way, my bacterial infection of the spinal-cord occurred just right after my 7th malaria. Therefore I must strongly dis-advise to speak of a single cause for this disease, possibly caused by a whole bunch of other causes equally. It could be deathly.

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#8  Post by pamojja » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:40 am

Taking just 2 of the well known causes above, smoking and diabetes, one has to ask oneself the question why only 1 or 2 out of 10 smokers die of CVD, or only 1-2 out of 10 on a SAD diet via diabetes? What's the difference with the majority not succumbing?

The only answer I can come up with is bio-chemical individuality - differences in absorption, metabolism, genes, medical history, toxic exposures and other epigenetic influences, microbiome, etc. - Linus Pauling was already talking about in his book. The late pancreatic cancer doc Nick Gonzales followed that approach too:

Nick thought quite differently, believing that each of us is unique not only in height, weight and shoe size, but also in terms of dietary and nutritional needs. He relied on not one but ten basic diets, ranging from the nearly purely vegetarian to mostly red meat, with the fat, throughout the day. His predecessor Dr. Kelley spent years of his professional life insisting that one size doesn’t fit all, that each of us is biochemically and nutritionally unique and each of us requires a diet designed for our specific metabolic needs.

Ironically, when dentist Dr. Kelley first began treating patients with other than dental disease in the late 1950s and early 1960s, he believed that for optimal health humans should eat vegetarian, period. However nice the theory might have sounded, in practice he discovered that vegetarianism worked only for occasional patients, and that many actually worsened eating this way. Through a process of trial and error, he learned that though some of his patients did well with a plant based diet, to his astonishment many did best when they ate red meat and only minimal vegetables and fruits, and some thrived when he prescribed a diet allowing a variety of both plant and animal based foods.


Whenever I see anyone promoting any one single diet or abstinence, be it vegetarian or purely carnivore, low-fat or high-fat to everyone, I can only disagree. That's where dietary guidelines are based purely on beliefs, but no science. Just as most religions. We are all different, and your shoe-size doesn't fits mine. Any person in question oneself is in the best position by experimenting with different lifestyles, observe their effects also with lab-testing, to learn which size fits best at any time.

Take me as example. Been low-fat almost vegan for 30 years when I got PAD and a 60% walking-disability. Just adding in eggs, fish and high-fat along with comprehensive supplementation reversed that walking-disability. I just wouldn't do that well on meat only, or less fats. And I wouldn't want to follow anyone's religion, unless benefits experienced through clinical experimentation myself.

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Re: Eliminate sugar and refined and starchy carbs

Post Number:#9  Post by johnjackson » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:39 am

[quote="pamojja"]

Whenever I see anyone promoting any one single diet or abstinence, be it vegetarian or purely carnivore, low-fat or high-fat to everyone, I can only disagree. ]. Just as most religions. We are all different, and your shoe-size doesn't fits mine. Any person in question oneself is in the best position by experimenting with different lifestyles, observe their effects also with lab-testing, to learn which size fits best at any time.

Take me as example. Been low-fat almost vegan for 30 years when I got PAD and a 60% walking-disability. Just adding in eggs, fish and high-fat along with comprehensive supplementation reversed that walking-disability. I just wouldn't do that well on meat only, or less fats. And I wouldn't want to follow anyone's religion, unless benefits experienced through clinical experimentation myself.[/quote

not really
the main issue is what you are doing, these broad terms, "vegan" vegetarian, liberal, "conserattive, etc, dont mean a whole lot
ghandi was a vegetarian,, skinny as a rail
i know vegetarians who are fat
bob harper(tv trainer) in shape, lean,. works out, had a heart attack

dietary guidlines are crap, you need to have a goal and a path to get there
what was the cause of your PAD? how did eggs and fish/fat reverse it?
or was it the supplements?
since PAD is Atherosclerosis, Id love to hear how fish/ high fat cursed that?

I used to have a lady at my job, ate tons of dark chocolate cause it was "healthy"

Labels dont help...

I agree that SOMETIMES broad generalities or as you say " promoting any one single diet or abstinence" is a bad thing
Sometimes
but not always
....like people not drinking diet soda and suddenly losing wieght....
no, thats crap
but not 100% cutting out TRANSFATs? yeah, thats a good thing
/www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12154.php


medcraveonline.com/JCCR/JCCR-09-00341.php

//riordanclinic.org/2014/02/high-dose-intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-successful-treatment-of-viral-infections/

lpa
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/lipoprotein_a.html


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