ascorbic acid levels in animals

This forum will focus on the interesting topic of titrating oral vitamin C intake to so-called bowel tolerance, the point just prior to the onset of diarrhea

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trillian
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ascorbic acid levels in animals

Post Number:#1  Post by trillian » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:34 am

I am looking for info on the average blood levels of ascorbic acid that most animals
produce. So far I have not seen actual figures for the kind of range of concentration
which animals that synthesize their own vit C might normally have in their bodies.

Thanks,
-Sheryl

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Post Number:#2  Post by Van Carman » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:07 pm

I am curious about this.It might give us an inkling of what we might produce under the right conditions.Thanks V.C.
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Ascorbate Blood Levels in Mammals

Post Number:#3  Post by Ralph Lotz » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:29 pm

On the Science of Essential Nutrients
By John T.A. Ely
Copyright 2002

http://faculty.washington.edu/ely/SciEssNutr.html

Scroll down to:
"All mammals have the same requirements for AA"
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Post Number:#4  Post by trillian » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:10 pm

Thanks Ralph.

He shows a level of "~50mg/(kg body weight)"


I suppose then the only question would be what is the oral dose needed to
acheive that (unless he means the oral dose but it seems too low to be).

-Sheryl

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Oral

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:45 am

That is not an oral dose, I don't think, and from Pauling/Lewin/Cathcart, a good assumption is that roughly 50% of what you take in (as large oral doses) remains intact and bioavailable. So whatever 50 mg/Kg works out to in your case - double it.

We don't play much with the metric system in the USA, but isn't the average man 170 KG? If so, then isn't 50 * 170 8,500 mg or 8.5 g? And wouldn't double that (for oral loss) be 17,000 or 17 g daily - or almost exactly what Pauling consumed, and Levy now recommends? ( I know people will check my math)
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Re: Oral

Post Number:#6  Post by trillian » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:48 pm

ofonorow wrote:We don't play much with the metric system in the USA, but isn't the average man 170 KG? If so, then isn't 50 * 170 8,500 mg or 8.5 g? And wouldn't double that (for oral loss) be 17,000 or 17 g daily - or almost exactly what Pauling consumed, and Levy now recommends? ( I know people will check my math)


A Kilogram is 2.2 pounds so if the average man is 170 lbs that is roughly 77.27 kilos. 50 mg per kilo would be 3863.5 mg. If we say you should take double that as an oral dose than we're talking 7727mg or 7.27 grams.

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Thank you

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:40 am

I stand corrected - 70 KG (not 170 KG) heh? That must be the European average.
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Re: Thank you

Post Number:#8  Post by trillian » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:14 pm

ofonorow wrote:I stand corrected - 70 KG (not 170 KG) heh? That must be the European average.


Well, it depends, for certain cities in England and Scotland it would seem to be closer to 170K :)

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Post Number:#9  Post by Ralph Lotz » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:44 pm

The average man is supposed to weigh 70 Kilos (154 lbs.)
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Re: Thank you

Post Number:#10  Post by zucic » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:29 am

ofonorow wrote:I stand corrected - 70 KG (not 170 KG) heh? That must be the European average.

In some parts of Europe male adults are far above 70 kg (lowercase letters
should be used for this SI unit). There is a lot of diversity - it seems that many
cold age meat-eaters are trapped in now warm parts of Europe, forced
to eat grains. Larger body is a good adaptation to cold.

zucic

Re: ascorbic acid levels in animals

Post Number:#11  Post by zucic » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:06 am

trillian wrote:I am looking for info on the average blood levels
of ascorbic acid that most animals produce. So far I have not seen
actual figures for the kind of range of concentration which animals
that synthesize their own vit C might normally have in their bodies.
Thanks, Sheryl

I was looking for this information for days and I have found an
article in Turkish language (2001), which states that young goats
have about 0.7 mg/dl of vitamin C in serum
(serum = plasma minus clotting factors).
The article is here:
[url]mistug.tetm.tubitak.gov.tr/~bdyim/abs.php3?dergi=vet&rak=0008-5[/url]
I don't know Turkish, but I believe that "Kontrol Grubu" means
"Control Group". Sick goats have only about 0.3 mg/dl.
I have also found some articles which claim that humans and animals have
in fact similar plasma levels of ascorbate! Now, how to explain this?

My explanation (forum members, please check it!) is here:
(1) We must mantain high level of plasma ascorbate to provide proper
conditions for "pumping" of ascorbate into some tissues which pump it
basically by the same mechanism as animal tissues. We just can't tolerate
low levels of ascorbate.
(2) We are capable to build up ascorbate in our blood because we have
much higher concentration of uric acid in blood than animals (five times
or even more). In humans, uric acid does the urgent, general purpose
antioxidant tasks. Three quarters of antioxidative capacity in mouse
plasma is provided by ascorbate, while in humans uric acid may contribute
up to two thirds (Maeda et. al., PNAS, 2000, 97:841-846).

An average human on decent diet (without supplementation) mantains
about 0.6 mg/dl of ascorbic acid in plasma, but we are not goats, we
have different metabolic rate etc... We can and we should push far
beyond this value!

zucic

Re: ascorbic acid levels in animals

Post Number:#12  Post by zucic » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:08 am

zucic wrote:[url]mistug.tetm.tubitak.gov.tr/~bdyim/abs.php3?dergi=vet&rak=0008-5[/url]

Crap, the correct link is:
http://mistug.tetm.tubitak.gov.tr/~bdyim/abs.php3?dergi=vet&rak=0008-5
A complete article is available in .pdf format, with abstract in English.

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Post Number:#13  Post by trillian » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:53 am

I saw this a while back but it lacks enough detail;

"If we look at one of these animals, a goat for instance, we will find that on any given day, just walking around, without stress, this animal will produce between 5-15 grams of ascorbic acid. If we average this out to 10 grams, this is the required dose that is recommended to aid the immune system in normal, optimal physical health. This same goat, if stressed, will produce 5-10 times its baseline levels of ascorbic acid. That is, it will produce, in its liver, between 50 and 100 grams, in response to the stresses."

This is from; http://www.maryclinic.com/ and as yet I do not know anything about the site
or the information they present but since you mentioned goats...

-Sheryl

zucic

Post Number:#14  Post by zucic » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:44 pm

trillian wrote:"If we look at one of these animals, a goat for instance, we will find that on any given day, just walking around, without stress, this animal will produce between 5-15 grams of ascorbic acid ...
-Sheryl

Goats are very popular in these considerations ever since the Indian
scientist Indu B. Chatterjee did his research on animal production of
ascorbate. Goats are very common in India, so they were a logical choice.

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How much does a human need?

Post Number:#15  Post by Ralph Lotz » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:34 pm

Given that we must get our ascorbate through the digestive system, how much do we need then to reach maximum blood saturation?
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush


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