New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

[kwokshsee]

Hello Chris, at qualityliposomalc.com you list out the weights of various ingredients for three different strengths of alcohol, viz. 40%, 70%, and 100%. But many a time it may be difficult to obtain exactly the same strengths of alcohol, so it will be much more flexible if you could provide the formula(s) for one to work out the weights of other ingredients for a particular strength of alcohol.

Could you please do that? Post it here and at qualityliposomalc.com as well, please. Many many thanks!

[RAC]

I just made my first batch of Chris' formula, after making and using daily Liposomal Vitamin C for over a year. I was using an on-line discovered formula without any alcohol, much less ascorbate (and lecithin), and less technically sophisticated. I have an reasonably good ultrasonic cleaner, of the $150 variety, which I purchased through Amazon. I have thought that I was getting good results. However, I had no technical way of gauging how successfully I have been encapsulating the Sodium Ascorbate. It now appears my encapsulation process was not doing as well as I thought. My general health is good.

I have a few questions for Chris or anyone else who may be able to contribute to my knowledge.

My question is whether the formula would be more successful by lowering the proportions of ascorbate, and lecithin, and alcohol in the formula? Or, in other words, just adding water, thus diluting the product. Is there any benefit in having the formula the highest possible suspension? There are no commercial considerations to weigh. It would make no significant difference regarding storage (fridge space). Regarding usage, I could just as easily down two shots of Liposomal C, rather than one, to get the desired amount of ascorbate.

I used Everclear 95% alcohol, which was available at a local liquor store (Chicago suburb). I used the adjusted formula suggested in this forum for 95% Everclear, which is approx 469+ grams water and 122+ grams Everclear. I used the lesser suggested amount of lecithin (80%). I used Swanson's sunflower lecithin, containing approx 25% phosphatidylcholine, which is incrementally higher that in the soy lecithin (22%) prescribed in Chris' recipe. Like some others who have commented on the forum, I ended with a thicker consistency than seemed desirable, and thus added extra water. It would seem that there is just too much lecithin (and therefore Vitamin C, assuming that a specific amount is needed in ratio to the Vitamin C) in the suspension.

I wonder why not make it less strong with a better consistency? Water is the least expensive ingredient. I would think the blending and ultrasonic bath processes might be more efficient with a more liquid consistency. I would think as long as the ratio of alcohol to water is correct, and the ratio of lecithin to ascorbate is correct, that the strength (potency) could be variable. The alcohol taste would also be diluted, which for me would be preferable.

Could you comment on my thinking, and correct my understanding with whatever data that I am missing?

Thanks,
RAC

[Corra221]

hello.
I did liposomal vit c based on your recipe,used 96 % spirit.
I have few questions.

1.When doing step 2 and blending mixture ,temperature never go so high that you stated (32).I have very powerful blender and after 8 min of blending temp reached only 29c.My question is if blending too long can damage the final encapsulation ?

2.when ultrasound machine removing bubbles from liquid at the end of that process I should remove bubbles from the top of liquid manually using a spoon or just leave it ?

3.When doing an hour ultrasound irridation I need to stirring or not ? if not the beaker should be be covered with clear plastic ?

4.Can I do the liposomal using only ultrasound machine without beaker?

the ready liposomal C has a light acidity taste ?

and last question.

5.How to check % of encapsulation of ready mixture.

thank you for your recipe its great and my mixture has nice little acidity taste.

[Johnwen]

Here’s a method to test the encapsulation efficiency of your homemade product without a lab or expensive testing equipment.
I can’t help but to wonder how some of the commercial products would stand up to this method of testing???

Brooks Bradley's simple test to gauge efficiency of a liposomal Vitamin C solution:

1)  Pour 4 ounces of the finished Lipo Vitamin C into a 12oz container.

2)  Add 1/4 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate into 1 oz of distilled water, stirring well.

3)  Pour the sodium bicarbonate solution into the Lipo Vitamin C mixture, stirring.

Results:  
If the resulting foam reaction line from this mixture is 1/2” or less you will have approximately a 50% encapsulation rate of the raw ascorbic acid nanoparticles.

If the foam is 3/8" or less you will have approximately 60% encapsulation.

If the foam is 1/8" thick or less, you will have around 75% encapsulation.

Foam occurs when the unencapsulated Vit C reacts with the sodium bicarbonate which is added to produce sodium ascorbate.
The liposome encapsulated Vit C will not react.
Thus, the less foam, the more Vit C is encapsulated and the more efficient went your process.
By the way, this test solution should not be discarded as it is still valuable as a medicinal!
The formed sodium ascorbate is a very useable form of Vitamin C.

[Johnwen]

I have some question’s myself about the rise in temperature while in the ultra sound?
I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of Inertial cavitations or Non-inertial cavitations.
Let’s first look at the drawing below it’s kind of compacted so the best way to understand it is picture a dividing line down the center of the pic.

To the left is the ideal way to encapsulate a Lipo using ultra sound. You’ll see applying the proper amount of power for the proper amount of time causes the capsule to expand which allows a product to enter the core of the capsule. Then when the waves are removed the capsule shrinks capturing the product inside.
To the right is what happens when too much power is used for a extended amount of time. You’ll see that the bubble burst’s into fragments causing anything that was located inside the capsule to be released. Or in simple terms, “Bursting of the Bubble!” In advanced testing they have learned that breaking of the bubble in this manner causes temperatures at the burst to exceed 1000F since it’s such a small area of such heat it could be barely noticeable. However doing it to millions of these capsules in a solution will cause the temperature of the solution to rise.





This Bubble Bursting method is used in testing of drug delivery systems.
I’ll brief this!
To test the delivery quantity of a Lipo Drug the purified product. Which means that only the capsules holding the drug are present, there is No residual drug external to the capsule’s.
The capsules are placed into a ultra sound bath and zapped causing inertial cavitations of the Lipo’s and the temperatures in the solution to rise.
When the temperatures start to the drop in the solution, the ultra sound is shut off and the drug that was encapsulated is then measure to determine the amount released.

So it would make sense that if the temperatures are rising you are destroying the lipo’s and not just expanding them to accept the product!! Which defeats the results one would be looking for!
I would be happy to discuss this further if anyone cares to???

[OxC]

Brooks Bradley's simple test to gauge efficiency of a liposomal Vitamin C solution:

The reason that Brooks Bradley almost immediately disclaimed the value of this test is because there are too many variables. I have attempted this process, but when you add a scoop of bicarb to your so-called "liposomal" vitamin C it doesn't dissolve or mix well. Rather, it just sits there in lump on top of said lipo-C with 1/8 inch of foam. If I covered the container with saran wrap, and mixed by inversion many times, it still had only 1/8th inch of foam. But if I took a physical rod made of plastic and mixed by crushing the lump of bicarb and stirring, suddenly a huge head of foam erupted in the container. If I continued to crush and stir, the head of foam increased hugely, ultimately flowing over the top of the vessel.
Please tell me how a layman is going to use this test to come to any rational conclusion as to the amount of "un-encapsulated" Vitamin C.

[Johnwen]

OXC WROTE:
but when you add a scoop of bicarb to your so-called "liposomal" vitamin C it doesn't dissolve or mix well.

Sounds like you didn’t follow the directions the way they are written.
If you look at step 2 it says to put ¼ teaspoon of bicarb in distilled water. After stirring well this will render a clear liquid that looks just like plain water. You then add that to the lipo.
You don’t just drop a clump of bicarb to the Lipo as you said you did. You seen what the results of that was!

1)  Pour 4 ounces of the finished Lipo Vitamin C into a 12oz container.

2)  Add 1/4 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate into 1 oz of distilled water, stirring well.

3)  Pour the sodium bicarbonate solution into the Lipo Vitamin C mixture, stirring.

The reason that Brooks Bradley almost immediately disclaimed the value of this test is because there are too many variables.

Could you link to this I can’t seem to find anything that concurs with this statement??

[OxC]

Sounds like you didn’t follow the directions the way they are written.
If you look at step 2 it says to put ¼ teaspoon of bicarb in distilled water. After stirring well this will render a clear liquid that looks just like plain water. You then add that to the lipo.
You don’t just drop a clump of bicarb to the Lipo as you said you did. You seen what the results of that was!

You're right. I should have refreshed my memory of the details of this subject before posting an experience that stood out in my mind from experiments I did several years ago.

The reason that Brooks Bradley almost immediately disclaimed the value of this test is because there are too many variables.

Could you link to this I can’t seem to find anything that concurs with this statement??

http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list%40eskimo.com/msg124370.html

[tjohnson_nb]

Thus, the less foam, the more Vit C is encapsulated and the more efficient went your process.

But I thought it was SA that was encapsulated in Lipo C? If so there shouldn't be any AA in the solution at all?

[Johnwen]

Great find Oxc! As I suspected,
“If you don’t get the results your looking for with a logical test then blame the test, Not The Product!!!”
First lets look at the testing method!
First were taking a alkaline solution and adding it to a Homogenized solution to see if the acid component is still present. If it is then there should be a reaction which is the release of gases. Since this reaction will occur in a rather viscous solution these gas releases will not be immediately released but form a Foam layer on the top of the solution. The layer is suppose to represent the reaction quantity. Since the added alkaline product is a constant the amount of reaction will be determined by the amount of acid product in the original solution. Which in this case is the unencapsulated Ascorbic acid!!!
Which is a perfectly logical assumption. Because we know that when one mixes up their own Sodium ascorbate they will see this reaction first hand.

Now let’s look at the reason for this, “Back-Stepping.”
The person who wrote this test also has and advocates a product and sells products related to making “Homemade Lipo!” That being LET org.
Has a financial interest in selling his goods and to provide a testing method which will clearly show that what these people are concocting with his products will not in fact produce a viable product. Which will fail every time this test is used. Because what they are producing is just a homogenized mixture and the use of sonafication is just a method to remove the gaseous reaction within the product.
Now before I continue on, Let’s now take a look at liposome production and the process used to produce them. It’ll take about 15 min. to go thru these video’s.
In part one, you can just scroll to the video and it’ll explain what a liposome is and how it forms. I would recommend watching the video first then read the presentation after. That way you understand more of what their talking about.

http://pharmaxchange.info/press/2011/04 ... cs-part-1/

In part two, We see how the different methods of encapsulation are accomplished. At about the 2min. Mark on this video you’ll see MLV’s by Reverse Phase Evaporation. This process is the one most homemade lipo makers are trying to duplicate. However if you compare this video with the process’s for Homemade you’ll start to see how they fall short in completing the process. Even without extrusion you could produce a viable product however without the necessary steps to get to this point all you’ll have is a Homogenized solution. Which is just a blend of Liposome’s and V-C zapped with a ultrasound to get the gas bubbles out!

http://pharmaxchange.info/press/2011/04 ... cs-part-2/

You probably noticed that during this video that emphasis is placed on the term, “Liposome Phase Transition Temperature !”
This is where it takes some understanding of what kind of product and it’s chemical make up you are using comes into play.
Since the most common used liposome is Phosphatidylcholine let’s take a look at the variables in this temperature that there are for this product name.

http://avantilipids.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=419

You’ll see it ranges from -69 to +80.3 Tm (°C)
(-76 F to 176 F)
Tm (°C) Which stands for Temperature mean in centigrade.
Or another fancy way of saying, “around this temperature.”

So we see that to get process of encapsulation going with these products it would require an exact knowledge of type of lipo, some you would heat others you would freeze to get the show on the road.
So the question would be How Many Homemade Lipo makers Know this information and what temperature to shot for to get it done???

So lets get back to the test!
I’ve watch a lot of these homemade instruction video’s that use everything from Cherry juice because it has 9 times the vitamin C that Ascorbic acid has. REALLY!! on what planet does this occur on???
To the hazards of placing the solution directly in the stainless steel container of the ultra sound. Because it release large quantities of metal into the solution. MAYBE if it’s lined with LEAD or some poor grade of stainless.
You probably get more metals in your body from eating with a fork then a high quality ultra sound would release!!

They all seem to end with one result that being a Homogenized emulsion which means it could actually be called “ Milk of Ascorbic acid !” Or we could use what they advertise it to be which is “Liposome PLUS V-C !”
Since the plus is a give in just call it, “Liposomal V-C!” However it’s the same thing!
This is the reason the test fails because the Ascorbic component is just blended in with the lipid and when the bicarbonate is added it will react to the alkaline. In better words the V-C is just floating around in the solution blended in with Lipo much like Milk!

In a medicinal grade of Lipo the residuals you seen in the video remaining after the encapsulation process would be either removed for testing purposes or encapsulated with the lipo drug for a immediate release percentage.

So one can see where a feasible test could be discredited for financial reasons when the product don’t meet the test or the test is for a different more precise and complete product altogether.

No they use ascorbic not SA for encapsulation because a properly made lipo goes directly into the cells of the body and is not intended to breakdown in the blood where it could change the PH balance and the kidney’s would expel it!

[OxC]

Great find Oxc! As I suspected, “If you don’t get the results your looking for with a logical test then blame the test, Not The Product!!!”...The person who wrote this test also has and advocates a product and sells products related to making “Homemade Lipo!” That being LET org.
Has a financial interest in selling his goods and to provide a testing method which will clearly show that what these people are concocting with his products will not in fact produce a viable product.

The person who wrote this test is Brooks Bradley, who I understand to be some mysterious guy (or gal) who presumably works with some mysterious underground and un-named research organization, that periodically produces "astounding discoveries" that said Brooks Bradley periodically posts on The Silver List, and then retreats again into anonymity and obscurity. You seem to be identifying him (or her) with some commercial entity that has financial motivations in his writings. I'm not familiar with LET org, or what products they sell, so I'm wondering if you are willing to expound a little on this, and where it is you get that info?

And I'm curious as to why a person who sells "products related to making Homemade Lipo" would want to "provide a testing method which will clearly show that what these people are concocting with his products will not in fact produce a viable product?" Are you saying he (or she) is a troll of some sort, say for one of the manufacturer's of commercial liposomal vitamin C products?

[Johnwen]

I agree this guy appears to be a ghost!
Some say he’s a research chemist for some place but some of his comments on lipo’s makes me wonder. Like just putting some product in with the lipo’s makes them want to capture and hold the product. I wish it could be that easy maybe he should have a talk with his liver about all them unnecessary steps it takes to produce lipids maybe it’ll listen. (Doubt IT!)

Anyway what I think happen here is he came across this method which is used by drug company’s who are working on Lipo’s as a step to test their products and tried to incorporate it into verifying his homemade concoction which failed so he had to back step and degrade the test and not his produced product! (Of Course!!!)

So I guess what we need to do. Is put this seal on his work!
Which is “Don’t Feed The Troll’s!”

[ibhipru]

I made a batch of Chris' formula being very precise in the measurements. I too was flabbergasted at the amount of Vodka I had to use. My batch turned out quite thick even though I scaled back 20% on the lecithin. My question is this: I made a full quart using the formula. However, per the instructions, if you only want to make two cups, you divide the ingredients by 1.6. Makes sense, however, if I now only have two cups that will last (me) only 4 days, do i really need the preservative benefits of all that alcohol? Couldn't I cut the alcohol back even more?

[ibhipru]

The person who started this thread (Chris) has left a few unanswered questions and I have a few more as well. Is he still a member of this forum? His website does not accept any inquiries.

[CeeCee101]

So happy to find this here!! I wanted to contact you through your websites, but couldn't, so here I am!

I want to make liposomal vit.C using your process. I already have ascorbic acid, vodka en lecithin granules. I have a few questions though:
-You say you don't have to use an ultrasound cleaner. But I think there's a reason it's often used, isn't it better with than without? Are the amount of liposomes formed the same, with and without ultrasound cleaner? And how do you take care of the bubbles when you don't have an ultrasound cleaner?
-You say you have to store it in the fridge, but what if you're away for the weekend or even travelling?
-Does it matter if you take it once or twice a day?
-How do you gauge your maximum and thus optimum dosage? As there is no bowel tolerance as a reference point. How do you know it when your needs change? Also, can you overdose on liposomal C?