IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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ofonorow
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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#31  Post by ofonorow » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:33 am

I agree Saw. That used to be my understanding, although I still don't completely buy the 200 mg ( the dosage NIH says saturate white blood cells.)

If these measurements are correct, and knowing how careful Dr. Hickey is, and understanding that the centrifuge and analytical technique will determine vitamin C accurately - in a liposome or not - then it would appear that we have learned something. That up to 5 grams, at least in these individuals, ordinary vitamin C is all absorbed. Occam's razor. It gets almost silly coming up with some other explanation.

Both Cathcart and Pauling felt that a great deal of vitamin C was lost during digestion.

Pauling on a Cancer Video (lecture) said his own experiments had determined a "50% loss", but the dosage wasn't given, and we know that Pauling consumed 18,000 mg.

Cathcart felt only 20% made it to the blood stream (or tissues?) intact (He said this during his video lecture on bowel tolerance). I have felt that Cathcart's guess was probably low, because he based it on the equivalences of oral and IV clinical effectiveness. He felt that ascorbic acid was "twice as powerful" as sodium ascorbate, but since there was an 80% loss, IV sodium ascorbate was twice as effective. (This is all from memory - which I no longer trust. It is recorded on the video.)

Are we back at square one? What if... What if DHA is also being measured in the Hickey experiments? The semi-oxidized form of ascorbate? Any chemist want to hazard a guess? This may explain why the quantities in the blood are equivalent, but why Pauling/Cathcart felt there was a loss - less of the reduced ascorbate? So they could all be right - to some degree.

Hickey's book mentions one study of men that showed only minimal absorption as the dosages were increased. Page 45 (Vitamin C: The Real Story) and this studyhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=On+the+absorption+of+Ascorbic+acid+in+man++Kallner%2C+A.+I. and another in women that Levin or the NIH used to set the RDA.

Then Hickey goes on

The NIH suggested the body was "saturated" at an intake of 200 mg per day. According to this notion, increasing the dose would not sustain blood levels at a higher value than 60-70 uM/L and the majority of larger doses is not absorbed from the gut. This is clearly an error, as sustained blood levels of at least three times this claimed maximum concentration are achievable with repeated oral doses.


What these data (5 g/5 g) seem to suggest is that the power of liposomal is not related to the absorption from the gut into the blood stream, but rather as Dr. Levy's research supports, from the blood or "extra cellular fluid" into the cell and perhaps on into the sub structures (nucleus, mitochondria, etc.) (Dr Levy shared slides from a recent talk in Algeria - where he was treated well, " like a King. "Might be exaggerating.. Conversation was a while back. He was cheered and did feel good about the trip..)

Added

Rereading Hickey's paper http://69.164.208.4/files/Pharmacokinetics%20of%20oral%20vitamin%20C.pdf I noticed (among other things, Riordan's Hunningshake was able to increase his own blood concentration from 200 uM/L to over 300 by adding liposomal) that the figure 1 - the 5 grams were of one person, a woman, and were "doses" these charts are of repeated dosing? I couldn't find the complete explanation in the text.


Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#32  Post by dectiri » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:31 pm

Notice how Hunninghake's description merely says he took the oral--standard first, the spaced out the liposherics in 4 doses..... BUT.... WHAT I'D HAVE GUESSED HE'D DO [[based on Riordan's own IVC two-stage protocol]] was TO START THE LIPosome 1st DOSE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE ORAL-STANDARD..

That way he'd get that fast/high boost initially from the standard-oral... and build the LONG-SLOW LIPOSOME GRAPH ON TOP OF THE BOOSTED OPENER.....

He wanted both high enough to kill cancer AS WELL AS the EXTENDED-HIGH to kill LOTS OF cancer -- not just sink back to NORMAL like a fast IV or like the standard oral.....

Can we conclude that's his achievement?

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#33  Post by Zhang » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:57 pm

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask my question, but I think it is related to the issues surrounding IVC vs oral or lipsomal C. It relates to another ascorbate formulation that, like liposomal C, allows a higher level of Vitamin C to enter the bloodstream.

I am interested in what you know about the ascorbate formulations that: Have a sodium atom firmly attached to the ascorbate and are accompanied by glycine methyl sulfone ribose to help the ascorbate get into the cells. The claim is that this formulation allows the ascorbate to use four pathways:

"1.) Glucose Pathway- the common pathway for Vitamin C uptake. Because many nutrients utilize this pathway, it appears that Vitality C does not have to “wait in line” to be absorbed and can use one of the other pathways if needed.

2.) Sodium Pathway- The fully attached elemental sodium molecule is another pathway utilized for absorption. Since it does not break down in the gut, there is no stomach upset (as most Vitamin C products will do at this dosage). Note this differs from common table salt in that it is not combined with chloride, the sodium salt most associated with hypertension.

3.) Pentose Phosphate Pathway- The added GMS-Ribose complex (a special glucose metabolite with a unique ribose fraction), uses the Pentose Phosphate pathway as an additional gateway for further absorption into the cell.

4.) Bioavailable Organic Sulphur (BOT))- The BOT enhancement supports healthy connective tissues, but also creates more pliable and permeable cells. When water and nutrients flow freely into cells, and wastes and toxins flow out properly, our bodies are able to eliminate toxins more efficiently and absorb nutrients more readily."

It is also claimed that it is almost 100% absorbed and highly bioavailable. I haven't found any significant research, but am trying some, presently taking it metronomically at 10 grams/day. Using a urine dipstick for VC, I am supposedly getting at least 100mg/dl in my blood.

Your thoughts?
Allan

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#34  Post by Zhang » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:18 am

Correction to my previous post. I am supposedly getting at least 100mg/dl in my urine, which corresponds to about 12mg/dl in my blood.
Allan

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#35  Post by pamojja » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:52 am

Zhang wrote:Correction to my previous post. I am supposedly getting at least 100mg/dl in my urine, which corresponds to about 12mg/dl in my blood.
Allan


Don't just believe marketing claims supported by no science at all. Nor that urine-strips results would relate to blood-levels for you this way. Instead let serum ascorbate levels be tested with ordinary ascorbic acid intake, and after a short washout-period, with the same amount of the over-hyped product too.

Otherwise every of your assumptions is based on faith only.

By the way, there are by now enough studies that showed liposomal doesn't enter the bloodstream any different than ordinary ascorbate. Just a 150% increase of AUC in intercellular asorbate. Which can be easily had by dosing 1/3 more ordinary ascorbic acid. And not liposomal at ~20 times its price. Unless you want to wast money for no reason.


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