Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:49 am

Hello Vitamin C Foundation,
I have a friend who is dying of acute myeloid leukaemia and I would like to contact the NZ farmer Allan Smith who was cured of leukaemia with Vitamin C. Cn you help me or do you know of anyone who can help me contact him? Any ideas at all?



After telling him that we are not in touch, and that is doctors would have more info (as Mr. Smith was in a coma!) and that Lypo-C was used after the hospitals refused large IV/C after the first one....

Thanks for this, but I have one more question. Do you know of any scientific papers that have documented the level of side effects from intravenous Vitamin C?



If you watch Dr. Cathcart's video, he points out that he "never has any problems" with intravenous vitamin C prepared from sodium ascorbate per his instructions.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgi-7xPrCAg

Problems occurred when other doctors deviated, e.g. used ascorbic acid (rather than sodium ascorbate)
or added other things to the IV.

However, you might google for "Riordin" because he and his clinic, (used to be brightspot.org), published the most on their IV/C for cancer work.
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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#2  Post by majkinetor » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:59 am

THe side effect may be death if you are deficient in G6PD.

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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:36 am

majkinetor wrote:THe side effect may be death if you are deficient in G6PD.


??? You seem to fall for everything planted in the literature... When has this ever happened and to whom??? It would have been BIG news...
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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#4  Post by majkinetor » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:09 pm

You are not serious, right ??! Of all people, you are the first that should know about this but your arrogance blinds you yet again. G6PD deficiency is something that MUST be checked, its well known phenomena, described by the folks that actually deliver intravenous vitamin C. Dr. Ronald Hunninghake, for one, from Riordan clinick on Mercola:

Check for G6PD Deficiency Before Starting I.V. Vitamin C

G6PD is an enzyme that your red blood cells need to maintain membrane integrity.

What many people don't understand is that high dose intravenous vitamin C is a strong pro-oxidant. And giving a pro-oxidant to a G6PD-deficient patient can cause hemolysis of their red blood cells.

So administering intravenous vitamin C is not for the novice.

I strongly recommend getting it done by an experienced practitioner who uses the Riordan protocol or some other protocol that ensures the vitamin C is administered in a safe manner.

Fortunately, G6PC deficiency is relatively uncommon. People of Mediterranean- and African decent are at greater risk, but it's rare even in those groups. In one series of over 800 G6PD tests, Hunninghake only found four people with a deficiency.

So it's not a great concern, but should you happen to be that rare person with a deficiency, the ramifications of barreling ahead with high dose I.V. vitamin C could be disastrous.


Ely wrote about it and he even recommends vitamin E for oral vitamin C megadoses to prevent hemolisis because of existence of genetic gradient.

It did happen. You should visit library sometime.

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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#5  Post by NiacinVC » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:21 pm

majkinetor wrote:You are not serious, right ??! Of all people, you are the first that should know about this but your arrogance blinds you yet again. G6PD deficiency is something that MUST be checked, its well known phenomena, described by the folks that actually deliver intravenous vitamin C. Dr. Ronald Hunninghake, for one, from Riordan clinick on Mercola:

Check for G6PD Deficiency Before Starting I.V. Vitamin C

G6PD is an enzyme that your red blood cells need to maintain membrane integrity.

What many people don't understand is that high dose intravenous vitamin C is a strong pro-oxidant. And giving a pro-oxidant to a G6PD-deficient patient can cause hemolysis of their red blood cells.

So administering intravenous vitamin C is not for the novice.

I strongly recommend getting it done by an experienced practitioner who uses the Riordan protocol or some other protocol that ensures the vitamin C is administered in a safe manner.

Fortunately, G6PC deficiency is relatively uncommon. People of Mediterranean- and African decent are at greater risk, but it's rare even in those groups. In one series of over 800 G6PD tests, Hunninghake only found four people with a deficiency.

So it's not a great concern, but should you happen to be that rare person with a deficiency, the ramifications of barreling ahead with high dose I.V. vitamin C could be disastrous.


Ely wrote about it and he even recommends vitamin E for oral vitamin C megadoses to prevent hemolisis because of existence of genetic gradient.

It did happen. You should visit library sometime.



I dont think you needed to talk that way to Owen. He does a lot for everyone and doesn't ask for a subscription fee or anything for his advice on this site. Thanks Owen for all your help. You did make me think though, could megadosing lypo-c do the same as iv c for someone deficit with G6PD? If your of Western European descent do you need to get your G6PD levels checked?
"When one's expectations are reduced to zero, one really appreciates everything one does have"- Steven Hawking

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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#6  Post by majkinetor » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:10 am

I dont think you needed to talk that way to Owen.

He was talking "that way" to me first, I think... And this is serious stuff, somebodies life may be in question however rare it might be. As "our" aim is to promote iv vitamin c as universal panacea or default treatment for number of diseases, more and more people will opt to do it and with higher number of people, probability that someone will have G6PD related disaster is almost certain if people are not informed well enough.

People should know about this in general as your own position in the G6PD production gradient may be at any spot - some people will have certain level of hemolisis even with oral dosage, definitely mild and asympthomatic one. How it can effect health depends on dosage frequency and so on. Its not something regular user of oral megadoses needs to think about in my view, but if you want to master vitamin C treatment this phenomena deserves attention.

2 deaths related to this phenomena are reported in medical literature so far that I know of, after vitamin c IV. If Riordan and other scientist that are main promoters of vitamin C megadoses say that we need to know about it, I think we should listen.

You did make me think though, could megadosing lypo-c do the same as iv c for someone deficit with G6PD? If your of Western European descent do you need to get your G6PD levels checked?

I guess not. Lypo C never produces so high levels of vitamin C in the blood judging from the very limited set of studies. But certain level of hemolisis is possible in specific people that are not G6PD deficient but have lower production of that enzyme. I would suggest vitamin E with lypo C just to be sure. I think 200 - 400 IU would suffice of mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols and since it is good for general health I don't see why any C megadoser wouldn't supplement it.

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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:47 am

Me thinks you make a mountain out of a mole hill M-. My only point when you associate "death" with IV/C. It shows your complete lack of perspective, which is surprising for someone who contributes daily to this forum!

And if you can find a link to even one case report, I'd be happy to become more educated! (I just want to know if the chances are greater than being hit by lightning or winning the lottery. Come on, give it your best shot. Somebody must have bit the dust and their doctor has written a case report!!)
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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#8  Post by majkinetor » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:05 am

No, I wont give my best shot. What I think is that there are better, more polite ways to express your disagreement with my opinions on this forum. I am not here to flame but to help establish some framework.

Anyway, you are missing the point. Aspirin can also kill you and probability to do so is also maybe lower then being hit by lighting. But information needs to be there along with probability of harm and context in which it applies, so people are informed. Why do you think that in drug prospects there are information of adverse effects that are marked with probability of 1 in million or something along those lines.

When lighting hits you, you wont be interested in statistics. Thats all.

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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:31 am

Sorry for the tone. But you are quick to leave posts that seem to lack perspective. And when I read
Aspirin can also kill you

it makes one wonder if you have ever read Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER? As the difference between aspirin and vitamin C are a major part of his book! (And reading it should almost be a prerequisite for posting here. You really can't know that much about vitamin C until you read it.)
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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#10  Post by Dolev » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 am

actually, if I remember correctly, aspirin kills a whole lot more people than lightening, something like 2000 people a year. However, I'm too lazy to look up the statistics because it's not important to me right now. :oops:
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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#11  Post by Dolev » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:44 am

Okay, I feel bad about the vague post above, so here's something more official. Note that the figures include a variety of NSAIDs, including, but not specific to aspirin:

24.(1996 - causes of death - NSAIDS) "Each year, use of NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) accounts for an estimated 7,600 deaths and 76,000 hospitalizations in the United States." (NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac, ketoprofen, and tiaprofenic acid.)


Source:
Robyn Tamblyn, PhD; Laeora Berkson, MD, MHPE, FRCPC; W. Dale Jauphinee, MD, FRCPC; David Gayton, MD, PhD, FRCPC; Roland Grad, MD, MSc; Allen Huang, MD, FRCPC; Lisa Isaac, PhD; Peter McLeod, MD, FRCPC; and Linda Snell, MD, MHPE, FRCPC, "Unnecessary Prescribing of NSAIDs and the Management of NSAID-Related Gastropathy in Medical Practice," Annals of Internal Medicine (Washington, DC: American College of Physicians, 1997), September 15, 1997, 127:429-438.
http://www.annals.org/content/127/6/429.full.pdf
Citing: Fries, JF, "Assessing and understanding patient risk," Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology Supplement, 1992;92:21-4.
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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#12  Post by majkinetor » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:40 am

Ofc I did read it. Actually, I devoted lot of time to examine the 'aspirin case' because there are some orthomolecular folks who think aspirin is vitamin like substance (for instance Ray Peat).

Pauling wrote about toxicity of aspirin vs vitamin C as an example of striking differences in dosing of toximolecular vs orthomolecular substances.

I am not talking here about aspirin overdose but about normal aspirin usage that can still be lethal in some cases (aspirin induced asthma attack for instance and anaphylaxis).

So man asked for adverse effects that are documented and G6PD is documented. You can't ignore that, you may think that I lack perspective and I think you need to be more professional as somebody who tries to promote vitamin C to general public.

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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#13  Post by Dolev » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:03 am

Stephen Sheffrey, in "Vitamin C: How best to Use It", describes the destruction of red blood cells by vitamin C in people with G6PD deficiency(p.83):

Only mild destruction occurred when 1.5 grams of C were taken by volunteers who were severely deficient in the enzyme, but higher doses and intravenous administration can be fatal


He then describes a case of fatality from IVC, and a couple other severe reactions. So yes, death can occur.

I have been concerned with this problem when recommending vitamin C in Israel, where there are cases of G6PD deficiency. Sheffrey suggests that if there is a doubt, "a suggested do-it-yourself secreening for low G6PD involves increasing C intake by a gram every third day while observing the color of the urine"(p.84).

Bilirubin and other blood pigments will cause the urine to turn cola colored or black if the vitamin C is causing blood cell destruction.
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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#14  Post by majkinetor » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:24 am

Thank you Dolev.

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Re: Questions related to N. Z Farmer Smith and Leukemia

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:01 am

Dolev wrote:Stephen Sheffrey, in "Vitamin C: How best to Use It", describes the destruction of red blood cells by vitamin C in people with G6PD deficiency(p.83):

Only mild destruction occurred when 1.5 grams of C were taken by volunteers who were severely deficient in the enzyme, but higher doses and intravenous administration can be fatal


He then describes a case of fatality from IVC, and a couple other severe reactions. So yes, death can occur.

I have been concerned with this problem when recommending vitamin C in Israel, where there are cases of G6PD deficiency. Sheffrey suggests that if there is a doubt, "a suggested do-it-yourself screening for low G6PD involves increasing C intake by a gram every third day while observing the color of the urine"(p.84).

Bilirubin and other blood pigments will cause the urine to turn cola colored or black if the vitamin C is causing blood cell destruction.


I respect Dr. Sheffrey (a dentist) but why wouldn't Pauling or the other giants know or mention this?

According to wikipedia, this (G6PD) deficiency in one form or another affects 16% of the world population.

We don't know how many are "severely deficient", but with odds like these, it would be very dangerous, in general (1 in 6) to take an IV/C.

Something does not compute.

Dolev, have you ever found someone with this deficiency that turned their urine that color?

This would also mean that no animals (other than the guinea pig and primates) would have this enzyme deficiency - otherwise their own vitamin C production would kill them!

hmmm http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17205013 Mice can survive with a "standard"
G6PD deficiency..
Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency is a common human genetic polymorphism.

Again, something just doesn't add up...
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