Question on Dosing IV/C - for elevated PSA

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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Question on Dosing IV/C - for elevated PSA

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:51 am

Hi Owen,

Dr. M here. We have spoken in years past. I am an alternative health care specialist, most often working with clients to direct them to physicians who can best help them.

I have one client I have monitored for over 20 years who has had an elevated PSA for that duration. The physicians I've sent him to have recommended a WATCH and WAIT attitude and gave me instructions on what other items to monitor on the blood tests.

I spoke a number of years ago with Dr. Cathcart to find out what dose range would be appropriate for this individual. I have been trying to find my notes but this was nearly 10 years ago.

My memory is clear that Dr. Cathcart said to make sure that whoever did the IV drip allowed sufficient time, to not stress the veins with putting too much C in too fast - he said he was finding that many physicians were in too much of a hurry on this matter and that stenosis of the veins was an increasing problem due to this.

I thought he said to work with a high dose for elevated PSA - my memory is recalling him saying to work with 75 to 125 grams with each infusion and if possible to work with 2 to 3 infusions a week - and then to retest PSA after 4 weeks of this.

But, as I said this was a while ago.

The VCF mentioned that you are now working with a clinic in Chicago with IV C with treatment of cancer.

This man has yet to show any signs of an aggressive cancer - his FREE PSA remains stable in a good range, and his PSA was down to 3.7 last July - the lowest its been in 20 years. But, it is problematic at this time for his PSA to remain high for other reasons which has to do with our attempting to get a doctor to work with him with injection of Growth Hormone into joints to elicit cartilage regrowth (Dr. D... of Miami who has done FDA clinical trials showing 85% success with knees - which is what needs to be done with my client) But, Dr. D..., rightfully is concerned about injecting growth hormone into a man who potentially could have prostate cancer.

The best solution according to his alternative care physician is for me to work to lower the man's PSA - and using IV C has been known to be quite effective with achieving this according to Dr. Cathcart.

Owen, my age is such that I must verify the dose of 75 to 125 grams with someone more familiar with the subject of IV C, given that this is considered a rather high dose by the clinics in the Miami area at this time. They are more comfortable with 25 to 50 gram dosing - which is rather low dosing from my knowledge base and talks with Dr. Cathcart.

Steve




Nice to hear from you. I hope you don't mind that I have copied Dr. Thomas Levy, MD, JD, for his opinion. Levy is the author of numerous books on vitamin C. He may have insights as a practicing physician with a lot of IV/C experience that I don't have. These days I rely on him for advice on issues like this.

Not long ago we had the same general question on dosage and Dr. Levy helped me update a document on preparing IV/C originally written by Dr. Cathcart, and we have posted at http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/ivc/civprep.pdf

Here is the relevant section:


Dosage Guidelines (Dr. Levy)

One gram per kilogram of body weight would be a very good general guide, which would be about 20 to 25 grams for a 50-pound child and 100 grams for a 220 pound-adult. However, just giving most adults 50 grams at a time for most conditions works out well.
Rate of infusion can range anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours, depending upon comfort of the IV, the amount being administered, and the condition being treated (toxins, more rapid, infections, cancer, etc., less rapid). The more rapid infusions will often be associated with hypoglycemia, which can usually be easily addressed with a little fruit juice or even a candy bar. But it is best if the added glucose/sugar can be avoided.

Dosage is always empirical, as in give more if the clinical ....


Re:

My memory is clear that Dr. Cathcart said to make sure that whoever did the IV drip allowed sufficient time, to not stress the veins with putting too much C in too fast - he said he was finding that many physicians were in too much of a hurry on this matter and that stenosis of the veins was an increasing problem due to this.



Sir, we have been monitoring reports, and in my opinion, the problem with stenosis is real, but has more to do with the pH of the commercial injectibles in widespread use. Their pH is generally too low (around 5 - 6). The pH of the vitamin C made per Dr. Cathcart's recommendations, ( e.g. sodium ascorbate, and which is also available from a local compounding pharmacy [ask me]) is around 7.2. Cathcart alludes to this on his video lecture (that we posted on youtube.com). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgi-7xPrCAg )The the U. S. Pharmacopeia specifies buffering ascorbic acid, while Cathcart recommended starting with sodium ascorbate. Cathcart frequently pointed out that his solutions are "gentle" on veins and he never had any problems.

Turns out there are big differences in efficacy too, (between commercial injectible vitamin C and sodium ascorbate per Cathcart) but this is another story.


I thought he said to work with a high dose for elevated PSA - my memory is recalling him saying to work with 75 to 125 grams with each infusion and if possible to work with 2 to 3 infusions a week - and then to retest PSA after 4 weeks of this.


But, as I said this was a while ago.


Perhaps Dr. Levy will comment, as there has been an interesting new development - liposomal vitamin C from LivonLabs.com. According to the recent revision of his 2002 book CURING THE INCURABLE: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins, Dr. Levy sees the best results clinically with a combination of this Lypo-C and IV/C.

Patients cannot be hooked to an IV 24/7 - but they should be keeping the pressure on cancer with a lot of oral vitamin C. The new Lypo-C can emulate a small IV - as estimates are that 5 Packets at one time might be roughly equivalent to a 25 g IV. This means that patients can get the benefits of vitamin C - higher blood levels, like an IV, inexpensively, without the needles, and perhaps 2 or 3 times daily.


p.s. As an aside, if you find your notes re: Cathcart, I am more than a little interested in his thoughts that are not in his writings .(As a matter of fact, we are currently working with a film maker on a very ambitious documentary of vitamin C and orthomolecular medicine. We are currently editing 54 hours of film of Cathcart, Hoffer and others giants, even Albert Szent-Györgyi but that is a side issue/project.)
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: Question on Dosing IV/C - for elevated PSA

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:55 am

Thomas Levy, MD wrote:
Hi Owen,

Not a whole lot to add. His concept of dose, 75 to 125 grams at a time is much better than 25 to 50 grams in general. Adding 2 to 5 grams of the lypo C daily or at least on the off-IV days would be reasonable as well.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy
Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Question on Dosing IV/C - for elevated PSA

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:08 am

As I was rereading the email, I thought of Dr. Riordin's lecture, and the reason his Kansas clinic always measures vitamin C levels in the blood after an intravenous infusion. Riordin's personal story is on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgi-7xPrCAg). In a nutshell, after a stressful event (maybe a serious insect or snake bite) he had an intravenous vitamin C infusion. He measured his blood levels afterward - and the vitamin C level in his blood AFTER the infusion was zero. It required four days for his blood levels to return to normal - even immediately after the daily IVs.

This is obviously related to Cathcart's Bowel Tolerance, as the body under stress can easily use up any available vitamin C in the blood. This seems to mean that he optimal way to determine dosage on an individual case, or at least the MINIMUM proper dosage, is to measure blood levels after each infusion, and if zero - continue with more/another IV.

According to the groundbreaking Levine (NIH) work, it is the fact that cancers are more receptive to glucose (and probably vitamin C) and that vitamin C tends to become toxic to the cancer cells as more hydrogen peroxide is produced. Whether this happens inside (or outside) of the cell, it does imply that higher blood levels, than can normally be attained by via ordinary vitamin C, are required for cancer cell death, apoptosis. If the levels in the blood are zero after a cancer infusion - certainly more should be given.
Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Question on Dosing IV/C - for elevated PSA

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:38 am

Owen,

Thank you for your thorough reply.

The question rolling around in my mind now is how to get the Clinic in Miami Beach to increase the pH of their C, which I strongly suspect is the pre-made bottles and not prepared in the office via Cathcart's instructions. Any ideas?

Yes, certainly feel free to post my email to you.

I also contacted a friend/client who received extensive IV C from Dr. Cathcart when she lived in the Bay area, as I want to get her imput on duration/dose, experiences, etc.

In years past, I have followed Dr. Cathcart's instructions and have self-administered and administered to family members with doctor's approval up to 100 grams in a 3 to 4 hour period. These treatments always and I mean ALWAYS provided immediate relief of the symptoms at the time.

I use a doctor in Chicago for providing the script for IV Glutathione for my mother (age 92 with Parkinson's). During one visit, we administered IV C in the doctor's office after the IV push for Gluathione on a sheer lark given Mom had some cold symptoms and we had the time. Mom then was able to gladly and energetically enjoy the King Tut exhibit following this. This was a few years back; and all signs of the emerging cold were stopped in their tracks - and symptoms of the Parkinson's were even less visible than normal (longer, better stride in the gait, with more stamina and stronger voice)

Locally, we have a Nurse Practicioner who is providing IV C to the people in area of Iowa from pre-made C (which I think comes in 25 gram bottles). I believe she goes a bit fast with injections based on hearsay. I use her for my own prescriptions and will visit with her soon and discuss the subject; and wanted to discuss with her the pH issue as this was a matter Dr. Cathcart made clear as well that was essential to have correct.

Next, Dr. Cathcart spoke of problems with veins encountered after sodium C stopped being available from Hoffman, speaking of the China sourced C being of likely less quality.

Oscar Falconi also spoke of this as his experience prior to his retirement.

The young couple who took over Wholesale Nutrition, specifically the young man spoke one day of possibly procuring the Scottish sourced Sodium Ascorbate - do you know of a good source for this Scottish Sodium C, and whether it is working as a superior form to the China Sodium Ascorbate.

I, myself, found vein shrinkage with the China C in myself and others who have worked with it, a result which did not take place with Hoffman LaRoche Sodium Ascorbate.


Steve


Thank you for this report. Confirming what I think we know. (I wonder about who the doctor in the Chicago area is, because I was in a clinic last year ([i]which turned out in my case ironically to be adrenal fatigue/low or no cortisol, one of the few things IV/C cannot correct - but allowed me to live)[/i]. I saw for myself what an IV glutathione can do for people with diagnosed Parkinsons, like your report of your mom. Miraculous.

I don't think the issue is specifically "Chinese C", but having said that, you might take a peek at this recent post of a story about Chinese vitamin c being tainted with anti-freeze, and one of our doctors explain how/why this could easily happen! http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10527

And we, The Vitamin C Foundation, sponsors the Scottish sodium ascorbate (the Hoffman-LaRoche company has been bought and renamed DSM - and the product we sponsor is their Quali-c. So the answer where to get Scottish (non chinese) sodium ascorbate, is from us. If your doctors are willing to make their own per Cathcart's recipe is: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org//cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=12_11

We are also working with a local compounding pharmacy that will provide 500 CC bottles (250 CCs of sodium ascorbate at the proper pH) for $100 plus the shipping charge anywhere in the USA - with a script.

When I was dealing with my adrenal issue, the local alt. doc (one of the most brilliant people I know) hears a lot of claims, and could not accept the idea that there could be a difference in efficacy between the commercial C and Cathcart-style sodium ascorbate. (We at the Foundation learned about this from a member, and we published his report in the Townsend Letter.) This doc agreed to use the Compounding Pharmacy's sodium ascorbate, first on me, and then on a few other "volunteers" and the difference was astounding to him. So dramatic that he now wants to do the chemistry to find out exactly how the sodium ascorbate is breaking down in solution. He doesn't believe that pH alone can explain what he is seeing clinically. We had a former Cathcart patient who reinforced the idea that was this doc was doing - "cold C"- was nothing like what he was getting from Cathcart. We both did research to verify that Cameron (for example in Scotland) was using sodium ascorbate IV. Other doctors have confirmed success following Cathcart's protocol, etc. We now both believe that the cancer benefits are closely tied with Cathcart's style of sodium ascorbate IVs.

My doc now calls the commercial (BioNiche) injectible "cold C" - perhaps good for flushing after dental work, and the sodium ascorbate "hot C" - because the herxheimer reactions are so profound. (We also learned, as most doctors experienced already apparently knew to slow down the drip! Since Klenner, the drip has been slowed down at the end, to allow the vitamin to expunge toxins and reduce these "herxheimer" effects (fevers, chills, etc. etc.) I posted my experience regarding this issue here: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9512&hilit=Correct+Intravenous+Vitamin+C+Protocol and if you have any notes on this from Cathcart, that would be invaluable.

In summary,
In our oponion...

The commercial buffered ascorbic acid is mild at best
It is colorless (why?) Sodium ascorbate is yellow.
The correct sodium ascorbate is available overnight from a compounding pharmacy in
Chicago, and we have the "Scottish" sodium ascorbate powder now.
Patients who do not slow down the drip towards the end will have a significant, sometimes
scary reaction to sodium ascorbate.
The sodium ascorbate is harmless to viens, where as the BioNiche product will harm
veins over time with continued use.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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