Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H2O?

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H2O?

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:26 am

Here is a mystery.

Why is the 'hot' IV/C (sodium ascorbate) yellow? And the "cold" IV/C clear?

I spoke to a Naturopathic Doctor treating her own illness, and she has experienced the difference
between the "hot" (Cathcart-style sodium ascorbate) and the cold form of IV/C. She has been getting
high fevers after the Cathcart-style IV, which she would be happy about, unless there is a problem
with the IV. (I explained what I think I know, that Cathcart's has a significant herx effect, and I just
remembered to tell her to slow the drip or take a "cold" IV at the end to clear her blood).

But she tried sodium ascorbate from wholesale nutrition. She mixes herself, and a) it was cold - no
fever or herx, and b) it was clear?

Why would that be? Any ideas?
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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#2  Post by studentroland » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:14 pm

One hint to an answer can perhaps be found here, where it say´s:
The trick is that you have to have enough conjugation to knock out the blue end of the visible spectrum. In a molecule such as ascorbic acid - or more accurately dehydroascorbic acid - that is not really that hard to do.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2006-05/1146750224.Ch.r.html

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#3  Post by studentroland » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Having read these two threads on the subject;
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10029
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9512
I take it that the "hot" intravenous fluid would be made "fresh" when necessary with sodium-ascorbate, and the "cold" variant would be stored for sale and made with pure ascorbic acid?
http://store.mcguff.com/products/5247.aspx
http://www.bionichepharmausa.com/products/ascorbic.asp?international

Another hint to an answer as to why some sodium-ascorbate solutions turn yellow and some remains clear, could be that some other substance than ascorbate, or ascorbic acid sort of "disturbs the equilibrium" among the irreversible endproducts from the breakdown of dehydro-ascorbic acid into Diketogulonic acid, L-Threonic acid and Oxalic acid, which takes place at various rates depending on the acidity (pH) apparently. It say´s on this site that one compound at least can do that:
http://authors.library.caltech.edu/11677/1/BORjbc37a.pdf
Glutathione does disturb the course of the reactions, and possibly an equilibrium, among the irreversible products of dehydroascorbic acid. The control solution which contained dehydroascorbic acid initially and to which no glutathione was added invariably became brownish yellow after several hours. The solution to which glutathione was added after 2 hours incubation, i.e. after nearly all the dehydroascorbic acid had undergone its irreversible change, remained colorless even after 48 hours.

So, reading the labels on these two IV-substances one can see that they differ only in one substance, sodium hydroxide:

"McGuff: Each ml contains: Ascorbic Acid 500 mg, Disodium Edetate 0.25mg, Sodium Hydroxide 110mg, in Water for Injection q.s. pH (range 5.5-7.0) adjusted with Sodium Bicarbonate and Sodium Hydroxide. Contains no preservatives."

"BioNiche: Each mL contains Ascorbic Acid 500 mg, Edetate Disodium
0.025%, Sodium Hydroxide 0.011%, Water for Injection q.s. pH (range 5.5-7.0)
adjusted with Sodium Bicarbonate."

And they both do also differ from Cathcarts formula:
Sodium ascorbate fine crystals
edetate disodium injection, USP 150 mg/ml
water for injection q.s. 500 cc

http://www.orthomed.com/civprep.htm

Dr. Cathcart says:
My nurse discovered recently that if you do not shake the mixture to make it go into solution until after you refrigerate it and are ready to use it that the solution is less yellow. I presume that this is good because sodium ascorbate is clear and dehydroascorbate is yellow. The made up solutions are always a little yellow but refrigeration before mixing results in a far less yellow mixture.


So, perhaps what Cathcart saw as yellow was not dehydroascorbic acid, but the "irreversible endproducts" of it, and the degradation of ascorbic acid to dehydroascorbic acid and then further into the "irreversible endproducts" was/is slowed down by refrigeration?

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#4  Post by studentroland » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:34 am

Having read a little further, it seems that "Herrman and Andrae" found 17 breakdown-products of ascorbic acid back in 1963, described in a paper named: "Oxidative breakdown products of L-ascorbic acid 2 Polarographic detection"...(which I´ve not found on the Internet)
These breakdown-products can apparently be divided into three different classes, depending on whether they have five or six carbons with a corresponding difference in wavelength-absorption...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8250252
One of these 17 breakdown-products is a breakdown-product of "2,3-diketogulonic acid", called "3,4 enediol", described by Otsuka and coworkers in 1986 as being important in the browning-mechanism of ascorbic acid...
http://books.google.se/books?id=nEdryv9n4PAC&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&dq=2-3-diketogulonic+acid+browning&source=bl&ots=dOaiWji6yA&sig=CMe33C7HxG29lK1uw8rRlkRkQOs&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=ZiNLUb38KpGMswaS_IGwDA&sqi=2&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=2-3-diketogulonic%20acid%20browning&f=false

http://books.google.se/books?id=UbgnE-dEoSYC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=3-deoxypentosone+ascorbic&source=bl&ots=qEieIlDPsV&sig=kZDPoI_GtDUe2Y-f191WnlUQk9o&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=5SBLUYsnzcW0Bt7rgIAD&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=3-deoxypentosone%20ascorbic&f=false

The way by which ascorbic acid breaks down is apparently one of four different "non-enzymatic browning reaction pathways"...

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kbta9ix48woJ:eaton.math.rpi.edu/csums/papers/maillard/maillard.confectionary.pdf+&hl=sv&gl=se&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj1E1fbzSY97QCNzCTeagAWK4gfjlGgc3lQF487xTwTO1LhaXWZ1Fzuqt34pJriUG1NZj01Kg5GzBxOuS6y8ZANuFg_GJV_SBBPXf1edsLY_GbzY5Cl2k-eEYLKQQ4aEFuIN37U&sig=AHIEtbS3--WxsiPpfoXjHTYjIQctqakaVQ

The "yellowing" or "browning" reactions of ascorbate are also of interest for understanding diseases of the eye...
http://www.pnas.org/content/82/21/7193.full.pdf
Last edited by studentroland on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#5  Post by studentroland » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:59 am

But she tried sodium ascorbate from wholesale nutrition. She mixes herself, and a) it was cold - no fever or herx, and b) it was clear?

Why would that be? Any ideas?


Perhaps Herxheimer-reactions occurr whenever there has accumulated breakdown-products from AA in the liquid being injected, irrespective of if the balance between them gives rise to a colour-change or not...? If one mixes the liquid one-self, or at least injects it prior to any accumulation of breakdown-products due to storage, no Herxheimer-reaction have to occurr because there aint any breakdown-products injected?

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:04 am

Thank you for the detailed research studentroland!

Can you summarize your findings?


I think the mystery deepens because I just had another call (and I
believe the person will be posting soon), who is giving himself IV/C and
reported the exact same observations.

This fellow too was using a commercial sodium ascorbate (this time
from Bronson, based on the verbal recommendation of the late Dr.
Cathcart.) It was clear in solution and very mild - no Herxheimer.

He switched to DSM Quali-c sodium ascorbate and it became yellow
and he had the strong Herxheimer like the previous lady naturopath.

Now it is not a reaction to this particular sodium ascorbate - because
the compounding pharmacy we use and recommend uses Chinese vitamin C
and has the yellow color and the strong Herx reaction.

My question is why these commercial brands of sodium ascorbate remain
clear in water? The caller had an idea. He said the Bronson sodium ascorbate
did not dissolve, and much remained at the bottom. He said it was coarser,
crystals, did not dissolve well, and the solution remained clear.

The Quali-C (DSM) what we call Cathcart's in honor of the late Dr. Robert
Cathcart, disolved almost instantly - and turned yellow. (I asked this person
to check the pH of both solutions), but I now suspect that the granularity,
the particle size of the powder has something to do with this mystery?
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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#7  Post by studentroland » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:02 pm

Can you summarize your findings?

Well, since I aint no expert in the matter, and don´t have a "full answer" (yet?) to this mystery, my speculative summary of my reasoning so far would sound like this: The colouration comes either from formed dehydroascorbate, which perhaps would be yellow due to it´s chemical similarity with 1,4-Benzoquinone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroascorbic_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Benzoquinone
or, it can come from a mix of irreversible breakdown products of this dehydroascorbic acid formed in the solution, where the existence or absence of colour would depend on whether there was some "extra" chemical in the solution which would somehow alter the "equilibrium" of these breakdown-products...
So...if the colouration of the DSM sodium-ascorbate is due to such an "extra" compound somehow disturbing an equilibrium of irreversible breakdown-products of dehydroascorbate, this "extra" compound could perhaps be some kind of "granulation aid", that the DSM-company apparently add to their products? For instance E464, or E440?
Ascorbic Acid 95% Granulation is also sugar-free, since hydroxypropyl methyl cellulose is used as a granulation aid. An additional product form with excellent tableting performance is Sodium Ascorbate 99% TG. This form uses pectin, which is very commonly used in many food products as a granulation ingredient.

http://www.quali-c.com/en/dsm-vitamin-c-portfolio/

The "TG" in the quote above refers to "Tablet Grade"...there exists also DSM-ascorbic acid-types labeled "EC" (Ethyl cellulose Coating), "SC" (Silicon Coating) and "FC" (Fat Coating)...
http://www.respharma.com/ita/DSM%20Productcatalog%202009%20HNH%20-%20final%20draft.pdf
This explanation would also explain this last piece of info., that the "coarser" type of C remained clear, since it has no "granulation-aids" or "coatings" and that it is these coloured compounds formed with the aid of this "extra granulation-aid" or "coating" that gives rise to unwanted effects, type Herxheimer-reactions?

All this reasoning hinges upon that there aint no differences in the water/saline solution that the crystals are dissolved in...?

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#8  Post by studentroland » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:37 am

But she tried sodium ascorbate from wholesale nutrition. She mixes herself, and a) it was cold - no
fever or herx, and b) it was clear?

Why would that be? Any ideas?


I have a bottle of sodium ascorbate from wholesale nutrition at home, and on tuesday evening I put some of it in two glasses with water...one with ordinary tapwater, and the other with distilled water...I then put the two glasses by the window, and as of today, thursday morning, they are both still as "crystal clear" as they were when I mixed them...no sign of any colouration...and we´ve had blue skys and sunshine yesterday and the day before, and today seems to go the same way...it´s a clear blue sky and sunshine at 08:43...
As for an idéa...see above about certain brands having added various compounds as "granulation aids", and perhaps wholesale nutrition haven´t added anything in particular to theirs...?

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#9  Post by Johnwen » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:08 pm

Geez talk about complicating a simple problem. I guess that’s why some people get paid the big money to D&C (daze and confuse) the populace. Let’s see you put sodium ascorbic in ringers and some turn yellow and some don’t, Some tap water it’ll stay clear others yellow so then you try and dissect the formulation of the ascorbic to find the problem. Ever heard the old saying “Right church wrong pew!” Well that’s where this is at, from what I’ve read here. How about looking at the ringers or d5w used for the vehicle of transport. Lets look at the process of what’s involved in it’s production. First you take water plain old tap water, then it’s deionized. This process strips the water of any of it’s minerals and impurities leaving a liquid that is a strong antioxidant and if injected IV would cause the red blood cells in the body to explode as would distilled water.
At this point depending on the solution their going to make, minerals and additives are added per their formula then the liquid is pasteurized which removes any pathogens to a minimum amount at this point it is then blended with the active components and packaged. Like most drugs they have their own formula and can be very different from one manufacture to the next. Now we add Sodium Ascorbate to this mix sometimes it mixes right up and stays clear other times it turns yellow, then sometimes there is sediment. My bet would be the sediment would be a very strong sodium residue since this is one of the electrolytes that would be added to stabilize the water then the ringers solution which is sodium then add sodium Ascorbate anyone see a common name here??

So lets say were going to produce sodium Ascorbate IV solution we would limit the amount of oxidizing electrolytes in our base solution to avoid any reaction down the line also we would add some buffers and stabilizers and some transport elements and when the base solutions meets the active ingredient it is absorbed and the result should be a crystal clear stable solvent. Now who’s going to buy this life giving compound? In today’s medicine the demand would be low and production would be limited at best. So the knowledgeable physician’s just add Sodium Ascorbate to Ringers and if it turns yellow so be it. It will do no harm! Some people may get slight reactions from the sudden release of unbalanced electrolytes but generally can by compensated for with the addition of oral Ascorbate which will counter their effects. So here it is again another wrong finger pointing at the life saver and not the water used to put out the fire.
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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#10  Post by studentroland » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:28 pm

My bet would be the sediment would be a very strong sodium residue since this is one of the electrolytes

Hmmm... isn´t pure sodium a metal? :) ...my bet would be undissolved sodium-ascorbate due to saturated solution...?
Geez talk about complicating a simple problem.

O.K. ...what´s the answer then to this "simple problem"?, :) i.e. "why is some sodium-ascorbate clear and other yellow in H20? (or Ringer´s solution)

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#11  Post by Johnwen » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:16 pm

"why is some sodium-ascorbate clear and other yellow in H20? (or Ringer´s solution)


As I explained above!
Because it’s a reaction to the chemicals and minerals that’s in the concoction we call water. Or the subtraction or addition of chemicals and minerals that is placed in sterile water so the human body can use it. Reactions such as these cause the SA to take on different characteristics which in turn lead to changes, one is color. However none are severely detrimental to the overall characteristic’s of the base product and can exhibit the same results as the uncontaminated product can.
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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#12  Post by studentroland » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:10 am

Because it’s a reaction to the chemicals and minerals that’s in the concoction we call water.

O.K. So how do we explain this experience?:
quote:"I think the mystery deepens because I just had another call (and I
believe the person will be posting soon), who is giving himself IV/C and
reported the exact same observations.

This fellow too was using a commercial sodium ascorbate (this time
from Bronson, based on the verbal recommendation of the late Dr.
Cathcart.) It was clear in solution and very mild - no Herxheimer.

He switched to DSM Quali-c sodium ascorbate and it became yellow
and he had the strong Herxheimer like the previous lady naturopath.", unquote

What is to say that the yellowing is not due to "granulation aids", since commercial IV-solutions seems to be clear?

can exhibit the same results as the uncontaminated product can.


O.K.? This would imply that the referred to experiences were purely a chance-circumstance, and if more commercial solutions are tried, some of them will be yellow, and cause Herx-reactions due to different base-solution, and that Wholesale nutritions type-C will become yellow provided it is dissolved in the "wrong" kind of base-solution?

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#13  Post by studentroland » Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:03 pm

The two glasses I put in the window...? Today Saturday, in the first one with ordinary tapwater in it, the water has evaporated, leaving a small distinctly yellow residue on the bottom with several small circular mold-colonies upon it...In the other glass with distilled water, there is still some water left, and it is starting to attain a slight yellow hue...
Fast-forward to Monday, and now the distilled water has evaporated a great deal aswell, and the remaining small amount of water is definetely clearly yellow...my "gutfeeling" tells me that the yellow colour comes from dehydroascorbic acid, since the yellow hue resembles the colour from the wikipedia site about 1-4-benzoquinone...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Benzoquinone

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#14  Post by studentroland » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:21 am

There was an interesting difference in the residues formed from ordinary tapwater and distilled water...the distilled water-residue was more deep yellow, bordering on orange and without any "crystallisations" or what seems as small mold-growths on the residue from the ordinary tap-water-solution...the distilled-water residue consists more of small trapped bubbles, almost like a dried-up orange foam...


Both glasses seen from side...ordinary tapwater-solution-residue to the left, distilled water-solution-residue to the right...
Image
Ordinary tapwater-solution-residue seen from top...
Image
Distilled water-solution-residue seen from top
Image

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Re: Why is some sodium ascorbate clear and other yellow in H

Post Number:#15  Post by studentroland » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:52 am

This last glass had a somewhat "drawn-out" process, in that after the distilled water had evaporated, the remaining now clearly orange-coloured residue seems to undergo some kind of gas-releasing-process, since the small bubbles initially trapped in the residu slowly gets more, so that the remaining residue very slowly kind-of "swells" a little...the surface is not wet, put forms a kind of "skin", under which the bubbles are trapped...the other glass, with ordinary tap-water is solid white/slightly yellow crystals in the bottom...big difference...so...obviously the constituents of the solvent has impact on the solution, but not necessarily on the colour, since the Na-Ascorbate solution in distilled water after some days turned both yellow and increasingly orange as time went by, and somehow in the process releases some gas which becomes trapped aswell...?


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