help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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ofonorow
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help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:13 pm

These docs were using DSM sodium ascorbate for i/v with the following description of events:
I refer to our telephone conversation pertaining to the incident of my brothers patients who have developed reaction while infusion ended up rushed to the emergency ward in the General Hospital.

In Brief i was informed by my brother as follows:-

60gram of sodium ascorbade reconstituted in 800 ml sodium chloride (normal saline) ended in reaction in his patient.

The patient is 58 years old with a CA prostate with bony metastasis ealier on antiandrogen therapy.

The product that was delivery to us namely sodium ascorbade (for IV) was compounded at the componding lab who have divided into 10gram in 50ml sterile syringes.

The reconstituted powder was mixed with IV parentovit. The infusion was over 1.5 hours.

At the middle of the infusion the patient developed sob, restlesness,chills and rigor. His Blood pressure was 80/60, tachycardia, pallor with cold extremities. Infusion ceased, replaced with n.s.l/m adrenaline three times, 1/m piriton, o2 givwenimmediately. Patient referred to hospital via ambulance. CBC - normal, blood sugar -19mmol. Patient comfortable but admitted for observation.

Question

Is this sodium ascorbade exclusively meant for IV use?

I was told by my brother that the product that he normally use for vit C IV were crystal clear, unlike your product ( 6 bottle of sodium ascorbade ) that you have confirmed that it can be used for IV. In fact your product turbid yellow upon constitution the powder does not dissolve completely. Sediments are still seen.

Please revert to me as soon as possible.

thank you
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Post Number:#2  Post by exitium » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:25 pm

Sounds scary, was a bad herx reaction or something else?

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Re: help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Post Number:#3  Post by eDOC » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:00 pm

Most likely due to Anaphylactic reaction to compounded Sodium Ascorbate.
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Re: help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Post Number:#4  Post by Johnwen » Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:01 pm

The reconstituted powder was mixed with IV parentovit.


If it's pantovit it don't suprise me he had reaction!!

They should read the sheet on it before they use it!!!

Pharmaceutical incompatibility


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Re: help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:19 am

Thanks eDOC and johnwen! (I was also wondering about the use of saline - too much sodium?)

This was my preliminary response for the record.


A preliminary answer to your questions. We have covered the difference between the Cathcart IV - which is yellow - and the commercial vitamin C - which is buffered ascorbic acid and is clear - at our forum. http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10739

Not sure we understand why, but the yellow version is more powerful, esp. in terms of Herxheimer (adverse seeming) reactions, than the clear commercial versions - which are mild and good for flushes. Dr. Cathcart (in his lecture that we posted on youtube) theorized it is DHA (deydroascorbate) that makes the solution yellow. He mentioned that his nurses would leave the sodium ascorbate as a sludge at the bottom of the IV bag - only mixing just prior to administration. That would keep the solutions fairly clear until use. But diluted sodium ascorbate is yellow.

For me, my IV/C use, a compounding pharmacy locally makes sodium ascorbate sterile and in the way Cathcart described - and it is yellow. My doctor - prefers this to mixing himself.

I learned about the difference in potency from a man helping his sister overcome mercury poisoning - We published this and I have some links.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7563

This man told me that he notice on sodium ascorbate, parts of the body that are already in distress will react to the sodium ascorbate IV - during the IV. I have experienced this myself. (Might be due to pulling toxins out of tissues.)

This doesn't happen with the commercial clear buffered ascorbic acid IVs.

I'm sure they checked the pH -- right? And use sterile water. And after these reactions,
slow the IV to flush (rather than pull toxins out of tissues!!!!!) See: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9512 for the recommended protocol:

Or use the commercial mild vitamin C to flush.

Now my own doc could not believe there could be any difference in IV/C between sodium ascorbate and the commercial IVs - - and we have also covered this difference extensively in the IV section at our forum. Seeing is believing and he now wants to have it chemically analyzed and do a paper to advise other doctors of the difference, there is a large difference.

Now Cathcart himself said he experienced no problems with his method and that at the concentration, the solution was microbeicidial. Dr. Levy recommends the micro filter to be absolutely safe, which probably slows the IV, making it safer.

I do wonder about the 10% - Cathcart recommend 50/50 - 50 grams of sodium ascorbate for 50 grams of water to make the stock solution. The 50% solution is microbecidal - germicidal - bacteriacidal - kills everything.

And I would not use saline - only sterile water
.
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Re: help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Post Number:#6  Post by studentroland » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:26 am

I don´t know much about intravenous injections, but "Parentovit" sounds eerily similar to"Parentrovite"...if it is the same stuff, then it has been associated with anaphylactic schock and death before...

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Re: help from docs with I/V experience - serious reaction

Post Number:#7  Post by davea0511 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:24 am

According to Cathcart this should almost be expected when you expect when you depart from standard practice (the use of parentovit and a saline base both are likely to blame for the bad reaction). Also the yellow-ish color is also a departure from Cathcart's recommendation. If it's yellow it's probably oxidized and you're not getting the bioavalable electrons or antioxidizing effect that reduced vit C provides.

Here's Cathcart's video on IVC preparation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuRTLoQlSks

It should be the gold standard for how to do IVC. Please view this if you have not yet. It should be your IVC bible.

Dr. Cathcart's recommended that his solution be as non-yellow as possible, noting of course that sodium ascorbate (neutral solution) does take a slightly pale-yellow hue, but not "yellow". In my own preparations of fresh full strength sodium ascorbate (from powder, used both nowFoods and SwansonVitamins brands) to the point of precipitate then worst case the color is more like nearly colorless white grape juice. When it gets yellow-ish I throw it out. This is why Cathcart prepared his with the precipitate in the bottom, mixing it to dissolve just prior to use because it stayed colorless that way.

Note that Owen's use (see above post) can be confusing for those unfamiliar with his condition or terminology, or who are not using it the same way to specifically target things such as heavy metal poisoning as he has been doing. Those methods should probably only be attempted after a patient has experienced Cathcart's original protocol (see link above) with no negative effects, I think this is what Owen calls a "flush". Also, with regard to "commercial preparations" ... there are many different commercial preparations ... some worse that others (some reportedly almost orange which is probably mostly oxidation, ie. dehydroscorbic acid, in which case it will not donate any valuable bio-available electrons).
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