IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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davids1
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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#16  Post by davids1 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:38 pm

tjohnson_nb wrote:Yes David, I think I am coming to the conclusion that oral AA (not necessarily lipo) is really good at prevention/mediation of illness but not as an active therapeutic treatment - it seems you need to go the IV route for that. However, I would still like to see how high plasma levels can be pushed to with lipo C - like taking 1 gram per 1/2 hr all through the day. Who knows, perhaps one could reach 1000 uM but it will be costly - like $20-30/day. Still it would be worth it to fight cancer.
Hi TJ,

I would point you to Cathcart's [apparently successful] use of ascorbic acid for the "therapeutic treatment" of scores of diseases, often in the 100 to 200+ grams per day range. His "Titrate article http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.ortho ... itrate.htm was the one that really "turned the light on " for me back in 1994. I found the implications on/in his "Bowel Tolerance" table to be almost miraculous! However, he did also write that, he got even better results with IV/C.

As an aside, I would think "$20 to 30/day" would be almost "nothing" compared to the cost of IV/C and/or chemotherapy/radiation, etc.!

Just my viewpoint and "two cents worth,"

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#17  Post by tjohnson_nb » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:16 pm

davids1 wrote:Hi TJ,

I would point you to Cathcart's [apparently successful] use of ascorbic acid for the "therapeutic treatment" of scores of diseases, often in the 100 to 200+ grams per day range. His "Titrate article http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.ortho ... itrate.htm was the one that really "turned the light on " for me back in 1994. I found the implications on/in his "Bowel Tolerance" table to be almost miraculous! However, he did also write that, he got even better results with IV/C.

As an aside, I would think "$20 to 30/day" would be almost "nothing" compared to the cost of IV/C and/or chemotherapy/radiation, etc.!

Just my viewpoint and "two cents worth,"
David

I don't disagree :) I think a problem is getting people to take so much - you are an exception! I have not had much luck convincing people to do this when they are sick.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#18  Post by exitium » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:48 am

davids1 wrote:As an aside, I would think "$20 to 30/day" would be almost "nothing" compared to the cost of IV/C and/or chemotherapy/radiation, etc.!


If that were out of pocket I would totally agree. The sad thing is insurance will gladly pick up the tab for poisoning you thats 10x the cost of orthomolecular treatment.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#19  Post by davids1 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:32 pm

tjohnson_nb wrote:
davids1 wrote:Hi TJ,

I would point you to Cathcart's [apparently successful] use of ascorbic acid for the "therapeutic treatment" of scores of diseases, often in the 100 to 200+ grams per day range. His "Titrate article http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.ortho ... itrate.htm was the one that really "turned the light on " for me back in 1994. I found the implications on/in his "Bowel Tolerance" table to be almost miraculous! However, he did also write that, he got even better results with IV/C.

As an aside, I would think "$20 to 30/day" would be almost "nothing" compared to the cost of IV/C and/or chemotherapy/radiation, etc.!

Just my viewpoint and "two cents worth,"
David
I don't disagree :) I think a problem is getting people to take so much - you are an exception! I have not had much luck convincing people to do this when they are sick.
So true; so true!

Cathcart wrote that he found young people to be particularly good patients because they had "cast iron stomachs" and [I got the impression] seemed to be more motivated, i.e. to get well as soon as possible. I must admit, where my health is concerned, I have always been very motivated.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#20  Post by davids1 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:38 pm

exitium wrote:
davids1 wrote:As an aside, I would think "$20 to 30/day" would be almost "nothing" compared to the cost of IV/C and/or chemotherapy/radiation, etc.!
If that were out of pocket I would totally agree. The sad thing is insurance will gladly pick up the tab for poisoning you thats 10x the cost of orthomolecular treatment.
You make an excellent point!
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#21  Post by ofonorow » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:20 pm

Coming in late to this topic. Sorry...

What exactly is "extra cellular" space? Why wouldn't that be the blood stream?

I have not digested everything before but I know this issue is important because our local cancer doc has read enough to be convinced that vitamin C creates hydrogen peroxide "outside" the cancer cell, but my reading of the Hickey/Roberts CANCER: Nutrition and Survival (lulu.com/ascorbate) is that they argue for high oxygen( "redox)" levels within cells to kill cancer, i.e., the hydrogen peroxide that is created within cells from high vitamin C levels is what causes aptoptosis.

So can any one clearly explain the first post's argument? - that Vitamin C can only work in extra-cellular space. Thx
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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#22  Post by tjohnson_nb » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:52 pm

ofonorow wrote:Coming in late to this topic. Sorry...

What exactly is "extra cellular" space? Why wouldn't that be the blood stream?

I have not digested everything before but I know this issue is important because our local cancer doc has read enough to be convinced that vitamin C creates hydrogen peroxide "outside" the cancer cell, but my reading of the Hickey/Roberts CANCER: Nutrition and Survival (lulu.com/ascorbate) is that they argue for high oxygen( "redox)" levels within cells to kill cancer, i.e., the hydrogen peroxide that is created within cells from high vitamin C levels is what causes aptoptosis.

So can any one clearly explain the first post's argument? - that Vitamin C can only work in extra-cellular space. Thx

Well how does stuff get out of the blood and into cells? Doesn't this happen in capillary beds? i assumed she meant that you need high concentration in blood to force it through capillaries and find its way into cells.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#23  Post by ofonorow » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:54 am

Saw wrote:Thought I'd share this interesting tidbit from an
interview with a doc trained by Riordan in IV vitamin c.
They are talking about how vitamin c has to be in the extra cellular
spaces to kill cancer cells...

"We've shown this in our research studies, both cell tissue animal and we're starting to
appreciate this now in human research. But what happens is the oral vitamin c, because it's a
vitamin and is taken orally, its tightly controlled. So no matter how much you take you can
only absorb a minimal amount in the blood stream, but with IV vitamin c you bypass that tight
control and you get a high spike in the blood stream and thats what pushes it over into the
extra cellular space and we have shown that you cannot get that spike of vitamin c in the
extra cellular space with oral vitamin c. I don't care what the liposomal vitamin c people
say, you cannot get it in the extracellular space"


full interview here:
http://www.drhoffman.com/podcasts/channel-1/drhoffman-com-2014-01-08-128.mp3


Anyone from the Riordan team commands my respect, but there are a few things in the narrative that make me wonder.

So if extracellular "space" is outside of cells, why would this be an issue that requires IV levels of ascorbate? Missing something. I would think it should be relatively easy, or easier, to populate this "space" with ascorbate, than, say, inside the cell. In order to enter cells, ascorbate either requires the Insulin Mediated Transport through the membrane, or if GLUT receptors are only for DHA (as I suspect) the SVT (Sodium Vitamin C Transporters) transporter. Outside of cells should be a function of blood concentrations, unless there is something about the lymph (the cellular drainage system)we are missing?

The idea of the spike in blood levels, seems to make more sense pushing ascorbate into cells. And the tight "control" is simply a function of the rate of absorption (and kidney removal, but the kidneys remove IV/C as rapidly.)

The argument seems to be that liposomal cannot do the same thing as IV/C - however, that control mechanism that regulates the amount in the blood is bypassed. So that part of the argument is nullified.
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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#24  Post by eDOC » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:10 pm

For diagnosed/treating cancers, ONLY IV.
Last edited by eDOC on Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:18 am

That is the debate sir! On page 300 of Levy's new book DEATH BY CALCIUM he has an very well written appendix on administering vitamin C to patients. The assertion is that fast IV/C produces an insulin response from the pancreas, which in effect "pushes" more vitamin C into cells (similar to Insulin Potentated Therapy or IPT). On the other hand, slower infusions do not invoke such a sharp insulin response, and this may explain the mere "cleansing" effect of a slow infusion - mostly through the blood stream.

Back to the argument, which is IV/C is better because... We have a new twist, insulin. With the benefit of the Hickey/Roberts book (and knowing how thorough Dr. Hickey is) it would seem that the "action" of high levels of vitamin C is inside, not outside, the cell. (In the blood stream, there is the catalyze enzyme which cleaves H2O2 into H2O and O in seconds.) The Hickey/Roberts theory is that INSIDE cells, as H2O2 is release, the oxygen levels rise high enough to cause cancer cell apoptosis when regular cells are not affected.

So again, I can appreciate the fact that IV/C can produce much much higher blood concentrations, and with the idea of the insulin response, it would seem are required for the cancer battle, but I still think most likely that the action takes place within the cancer cell - not outside. And in theory, liposomal has an equivalent chance of creating the redox situation in cancer cells, perhaps not as reliably as IV/C - fast push.

And there is the issue of DHA - the partly oxidized form of vitamin C. Perhaps the yellow in the sodium ascorbate solution. This form of vitamin C no doubt does use the GLUT transporter which is insulin mediated. There would be less antioxidant protection, and there are studies show that cancer cells rapidly take up DHA, so it may be the DHA that is the potent weapon against cancer here (as one contributor told us was probably responsible for the anti-viral effect). This would seem to be a knock on liposomal, which protects the encapsulated ascorbate.
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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#26  Post by Saw » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:32 am

ofonorow wrote:The argument seems to be that liposomal cannot do the same thing as IV/C - however, that control mechanism
that regulates the amount in the blood is bypassed. So that part of the argument is nullified.


Or is it???

Why do the Hickey graphs comparing 5g's reg C vs 5g's lypo C basicaly mirror each other?

Popular answer: lypo is absorbed directly into the cell, so plasma levels are lower.

But why mirror reg C so closely? why not 50%, 10% or 200%?? why 100%???
thats a hell of a coincidence! no?
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#27  Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:58 pm

Where are these graphs again?
http://69.164.208.4/files/Pharmacokinetics%20of%20oral%20vitamin%20C.pdf?

I am looking at page 54 of "Vitamin C The Real Story" and the graphs (lines) of supposedly 1250 of vitamin C to 36000 mg of liposomal ascorbate.

Never made sense until reading the paper. The NIH (levin group apparently) says that 1250 is the maximum dosage that raises blood levels, and only transiently. That is the reason for 1250 mg.

The large liposomal is simply to show the increase and sustainability of vitamin C in the blood from the liposomal form. That it can get much higher for a lot longer (an interesting comparison would be a graph during IV/C).

Now back to Saw's point, that equivalent amounts of ordinary vitamin C and liposomal produce similar graphs.

One reason is that below 1250 mg - all vitamin C is absorbed - either way.




This would be page 4 (172) figure #1 http://69.164.208.4/files/Pharmacokinetics%20of%20oral%20vitamin%20C.pdf

Actually it is 5 grams. Looks the same.

The theory is that the more ordinary vitamin C is absorbed, the more loss there is during digestion. (Hard to see that from these graphs).

At some point between 4 and 12 grams, most unsick people would have trouble absorbing higher amounts.

It could be simply that MORE liposomal can be consumed without diarrhea. Hard to test 36000 mg of ordinary vitamin C on unsick people.

They were measuring vitamin C in the blood, not the Levy-effect that lipo is more clinically effective.

added. Here is a Riordan paper that placed a 50 G IV/C at ?? http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717329&issueno=7

Results: Peak plasma vitamin C concentrations were higher after administration of intravenous doses than after administration of oral doses (P < 0.001), and the difference increased according to dose. Vitamin C at a dose of 1.25 g administered orally produced mean (±sd) peak plasma concentrations of 134.8 ± 20.6 µmol/L compared with 885 ± 201.2 µmol/L for intravenous administration. For the maximum tolerated oral dose of 3 g every 4 hours, pharmacokinetic modeling predicted peak plasma vitamin C concentrations of 220 µmol/L and 13 400 µmol/L for a 50-g intravenous dose. Peak predicted urine concentrations of vitamin C from intravenous administration were 140-fold higher than those from maximum oral doses


So 885 (+- 201)

But is that 13,400 for the 50 g IV dose?

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#28  Post by Saw » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:30 pm

This is the chart in question.
Image
So why would liposomal c be regulated in the same manner
as oral AA?
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#29  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:34 am

Again, because at five grams, barring experimental error, all the vitamin C from ordinary vitamin C is absorbed into the blood stream.

(Above the bowel tolerance threshold, only liposomal can be taken orally to increase blood levels. This seems to be what Hickey's charts are about, to dispute the idea that maximum concentrations from oral intakes are around 220-250 umoles/l.

However, this tells us that the clinical effects of liposomal are not due to blood concentrations, obviously. I was asking Dr. Levy specifically about the controversy over "extra-cellular" versus "intra-cellular" vitamin C w/r to cancers.


Thomas Levy wrote:Hello Owen,

There are intracellular and extracellular effects.

I do not believe there is any question that the primary cancer cell-killing effect of vitamin C is mediated by the vitamin C-facilitated Fenton reaction inside the cell, leading to either apoptosis or frank necrosis depending upon how much the intracellular oxidative stress gets increased.

There is no significant Fenton-type activity outside the cell because there are not sufficient concentrations of reactive iron and hydrogen peroxide. I believe only very focal Fenton-like events occur extracellularly, as when a bacteriophage virus penetrates a bacterium. Extracellular vitamin C, however, does rapidly normalize collagen production and the production of other elements of the extracellular matrix that gives the cancer cell more physical "support" (liquid-like to gel-like), and suppressing this factor as a trigger for ongoing malignant transformation.

Finally, and strictly anecdotally, I have already seen multiple instances of liposome-encapsulated vitamin C, basically as a monotherapy, curing cancer of multiple types, or at least reversing the patients to apparent clinical normalcy.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy
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Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer

Post Number:#30  Post by Saw » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:27 am

ofonorow wrote:One reason is that below 1250 mg - all vitamin C is absorbed - either way.

ofonorow wrote:Again, because at five grams, barring experimental error, all the vitamin C from ordinary vitamin C is absorbed into the blood stream.


my understanding is...
@5g oral AA -> absorption=20%
@5g lipo c -> absorption =100%

regular vitamin c absorption begins to decline @ 200mg

Thanks for Dr.Levy's input on the cancer issue.
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.


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