Tiny dose of Vitamin C does not improve outcomes in sepsis and ARDS patients: JAMA

A discussion of Paul Marik's remarkable new therapy that cures a major killer in hospitals: Sepsis

Moderators: ofonorow, popnowlin

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 14090
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Tiny dose of Vitamin C does not improve outcomes in sepsis and ARDS patients: JAMA

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:48 am

https://speciality.medicaldialogues.in/vitamin-c-infusion-sepsis-acute-respiratory-distress-syndrome-ards-jama-citris-ali-trial/

If we accept this as "real" science, then it tells us that a key component of the Marik sepsis therapy is hydrocortisone. In theory, the vitamin C "unoxidizes" the blocked hydrocortisone receptors.

Lets take a look.. Could this be a propaganda study??


Patients were randomly assigned to receive an intravenous infusion of vitamin C (50 mg/kg in dextorse 5% in water, every 6 hours for 96 hours.


70kg * 50mg/kg = 3,500 mg or 3.5 grams IV for the average 70 kg male :!:

Tiny dosage IV?!? No wonder there was little benefit found, as per usual with this under dosed studies. Most people could have taken 10-20 grams by mouth.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

johnjackson
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:06 am

Re: Tiny dose of Vitamin C does not improve outcomes in sepsis and ARDS patients: JAMA

Post Number:#2  Post by johnjackson » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:45 am

yes and "studies" like this confuse people.
my friend thinks 500mg a day is HUGE dose of Vit C....
:?
/www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12154.php


medcraveonline.com/JCCR/JCCR-09-00341.php

//riordanclinic.org/2014/02/high-dose-intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-successful-treatment-of-viral-infections/

lpa
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/lipoprotein_a.html

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 14090
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Tiny dose of Vitamin C does not improve outcomes in sepsis and ARDS patients: JAMA

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:22 am

Apparently, 500 mg would be - if it was the vitamin C in celery juice :D
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

johnjackson
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:06 am

Re: Tiny dose of Vitamin C does not improve outcomes in sepsis and ARDS patients: JAMA

Post Number:#4  Post by johnjackson » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:59 pm

ofonorow wrote:Apparently, 500 mg would be - if it was the vitamin C in celery juice :D

LOLZ
ok you keep mentioning celery juicey and tony, so I looked it up
https://www.medicalmedium.com/medical-m ... vement.htm

YES
celery juice is just that
juicer+bunch of celery=celery juice

I dont have a juicer, i have a vitamix, so I could add celery to 1lb broccoli+1 grapefruit that I drink every morning


celery sounds good, as it is high nitrates(thus helps your body make more healing nitric oxide)

and I am learning how great celery is
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=14


If you have become accustomed to thinking about celery as a crunchy, low-cal vegetable but not a key part of your health support, it is time to think again. Recent research has greatly bolstered our knowledge about celery's anti-inflammatory health benefits, including its protection against inflammation in the digestive tract itself. Some of the unique non-starch polysaccharides in celery—including apiuman—appear especially important in producing these anti-inflammatory benefits. (Unlike starchy polysaccharides that provide plants with a way to store simple sugars, these non-starch polysaccharides in celery help provide this vegetable with its unique structure and are not made from simple sugars but rather from pectins.)
In addition to well-known antioxidants like vitamin C and flavonoids, scientists have now identified at least a dozen other types of antioxidant nutrients in celery. These antioxidants include dihydrostilbenoids like lunularin as well as furanocoumarins like bergapten and psoralen. The antioxidant support we get from celery is largely due to its phenolic nutrients that have been shown to help protect us against unwanted oxidative damage to our cells, blood vessels, and organ systems


I try to eat spinach and/arugula, as arugula is very high in nitrates, but it is hard to eat as it involves a lot of chewing and when I try to blend it into a liquid, it does not do well




why nitrates in foods is good for you
Food sources of nitrates and nitrites: the physiologic context for potential health benefits
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/90/1/1/4596750
/www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12154.php


medcraveonline.com/JCCR/JCCR-09-00341.php

//riordanclinic.org/2014/02/high-dose-intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-successful-treatment-of-viral-infections/

lpa
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/lipoprotein_a.html

Serdna
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:25 pm
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: Tiny dose of Vitamin C does not improve outcomes in sepsis and ARDS patients: JAMA

Post Number:#5  Post by Serdna » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:57 pm

Let's just remember the dose used by Dr. Klenner for puerperal sepsis:
In another case, using 1200 mg. per Kg. of body weight the fi rst 12 hours, in divided doses, and 600 mg. per Kg. body weight in subsequent 24-hour periods, in divided doses, a patient with advanced puerperal sepsis following a criminal abortion was returned to normal in 9 hours. Penicillin, sulfadiazine and I.V. Achromycin were also employed. The rapidity in which the pathology was reversed can hardly be attributed to these other antibiotics alone. This patient entered the hospital with 105.4° F. and in 9 hours it was 98.6° F. and remained so throughout the uneventful hospital stay.

That is, for a 60kg female it would have been 72g the first 12 hours, 36g/day for some days afterwards.

Dr. Fowler used 14g/day for ONLY 4 days. What were the mortality and ICU graduation at the treatment end point?
  • Mortality at 4 days: 19/83 in those under placebo, 4/84 in those under treatment, p=0.00068=0.068%.
  • ICU graduation at 4 days: 1/83 in those under placebo, 9/84 in those under treatment, p=0.0096.
The very curious thing is that mortality at treatment end point would have been statistically significant even with Bonferroni correction taking into account ALL the 49 measures specified plus these other two: 0.068%<5%/51=0.098%.

Some more comments on my blog.

Nevertheless I am not in Dr. Marik's camp. I think high enough vitamin C dose will do. Of course VITAMINS trial not being blind, using even a lower dose and not checking vitamin C against placebo doesn't mean a thing.

Serdna
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:25 pm
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: Tiny dose of Vitamin C does not improve outcomes in sepsis and ARDS patients: JAMA

Post Number:#6  Post by Serdna » Thu May 07, 2020 5:38 am

I don't think Dr. Fowler et alter failed on purpose. They have corrected their analysis of the primary outcome (my bolds):
Fowler et alter wrote:The treatment caused the missing data, which thus were not missing at random or normally distributed. We applied the Mann-Whitney rank sum test 4 to compare the ranked mSOFA scores at 0, 48, and 96 hours. We found no statistically significant differences in mSOFA scores between the vitamin C and placebo groups at 0 and 48 hours (P = .32 and P = .17, respectively) (Figure). However, we found a statistically significant difference in the mSOFA scores at 96 hours (P = .03). There was a 60% probability that any random patient from the placebo group had a higher mSOFA score than any random patient from the vitamin C group. Although the result at 96 hours differs from the primary analysis, this analysis is post hoc and exploratory and does not change the conclusion of the study.

Yes, they are extra cautious and methodolatry complying in order to not give any chance to dismissive comments by the statu quo. As I quoted in my other recent comment:
Petro wrote:NB It is difficult to emphasise how good this study is. Just ignore anything the authors have to say.


Return to “Sepsis Cure: IV/C, Hydrocortisone and Vit B1 Protocol”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest