The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Focus on Hong Kong Dr. Leung's vitamin B5 discovery that megadoses of pantothenic acid maintain metabolism of a calorie deficit, leading to sustained weight loss without hunger, weakness or ketosis

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The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:20 am

This topic will review and combine my reports my now one-week fast.

The lost, but now translated Russians science on fasting is documented on this youtube video:

https://youtu.be/t1b08X-GvRs

Today is Day 7 of my fast. I saw my endocrinologist yesterday. It was interesting to have a doctor examine me after 6 days on the fast. (I couldn't hide it because of the Libre glucose record.) She says not going to the ER, and my c-peptide lab, prove I am not a Type I diabetic - otherwise she felt I would have been in the ER for not taking any insulin during this period.

I think her concern is a warning for real Type I diabetics. If you follow in these foot steps, you will have to closely monitor glucose and while reducing your insulin, probably not eliminate it completely.

The fact that I am doing so well without insulin induced her to prescribe her "favorite" medication - metformin (Glucophage)... With reduced lantus... All will be monitored on the Libre.

The Science of Fasting documentary claims that glucose levels go to zero, as early as day 3. Either they didn't have glucose meters when the research was conducted, or I am an anomaly. The libre reports that my glucose levels had been a straight line around 130-150 mg/dl over the entire 7 days. (The lab report was 119 mg/dl - makes me wonder which measurement is more correct)? Lab blood, Libre interstitial fluid.

Actually, I feel very good. I have "cheated" a little lately, but absolutely no carbs yet. The supplements I take, which now include 10 g of B5, are apparently enough to trigger a stomach acid response. I took the supplements in the evening, and woke up with an acid reflux - stomach acid reaching my mouth! I ate a slice of American cheese, and have been taking a slice of cheese with my evening supplements since.

By accident I reduced my hydrocortisone to 20 mg yesterday (prescription is 30 mg, and at 35 mg I am a completely normal human. No pains or inflammations.) -- and didn't notice any thing, as if the cortisol requirement is down on the fast. It would be nice if this lowered requirement lasts after the fast.

I will be able to adopt a strict, almost no carb, Atkins diet after this, and be happy (to eat!) People who haven't seen me in awhile (e.g. before the mesh surgery) keep asking my how much weight I've lost :-)

Still no hunger, but I was light-headed yesterday.

The fast will be shortened to 10 days this time, because of a dinner engagement this Friday.

I cannot get over how easy it is - with the crutch of 10 grams of panothenic acid (vitamin B5)

From other posts:


My Day 1 report
I wasn't going to mention this until after I did a two-week fast, but I have started a fast. I have watched, and rewatched the documentary THE SCIENCE OF FASTING... https://youtu.be/t1b08X-GvRs (Which is enlightening, and ends with a bombshell - the discovery that fasting not only compliments chemotherapy, but can be a strong anti=-cancer therapy without chemo.)

My strategy is to start with a 12 day fast. According to the documentary, glucose levels go to zero in 2 days. I will be monitoring mu sugar levels, but if all goes as expected, I plan to eliminate all (or most) of my own insulin (40-50 units of long term, and 15-20 units of short term). The research reports that there is a regular "acidosis crisis" around days 2 and 3. I may add some extra sodium ascorbate to counter this phase. Which brings up the point that while I will only be drinking, mostly water, I will take most of my regular supplements, especially vitamin C.

According to the documentary, the body only cannibalizes 4% of our protein during a fast (while using 96% of stored fats). It also claims that the brain "must have glucose" but that ketone bodies are an alternate fuel?? With the new found knowledge that vitamin B5 promotes efficient lipid burning (and avoids ketosis) it will be interesting to see what happens, as I plan to try and take the 10 grams of vitamin B5 during the fast.

I can always start eating if there is a problem. (The B5 experiments showed no weakness, hunger or ketosis during a 1000 calorie per day diet.)

The Russian and German research and clinical/empirical experience shows that most people who fast "reset" their numbers to what is generally considered healthy (especially cholesterol, etc.)

My primary motivation is to see how much I can reduce my own hydrocortisone requirement during the fast.

I am not recommending that you try the fast at this time, but that documentary with previously unknown knowledge about Russian research is worth watching.


Day 3 report
https://vitamincfoundation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=53501&sid=cb7c86b6ce8642b03dc1a1e1d0f23b55#p53487

Day 5 report
Coincidentally, my (new) endrocrin ordered blood tests ... johnwen.. All numbers in the dead center except for these. And this was after fasting for about 24 hours - (I am now in Day 5, no hunger or weakness).

The anomalies: (Last Wednesday, Dec 5th, 2018)

Total Bilirubin 1.4 mg/dL 0.0 - 0.9 mg/dL H (**I had been diagnosed with Gilbert's syndrome in college)

Alkaline Phosphatase 124 U/L 43 - 117 U/L H

BUN/Creatinine Ratio 20.2 10.0 - 20.0 H

lucose 119 mg/dL 70 - 99 mg/dL H



johnwen, I haven't researched this, but verbally I was told that the c-peptide shows that I am still making some of my own insulin. True?

C-Peptide, S 2.5 ng/mL 1.1 - 4.4 ng/mL
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:35 am

ofonorow wrote:The Science of Fasting documentary claims that glucose levels go to zero, as early as day 3. Either they didn't have glucose meters when the research was conducted, or I am an anomaly.


After you said that on the other thread and me answering that it isn't possible on a short water fast for glucose to go to zero, I watched that documentary very attentively. But didn't heard anything about 'zero', other than glucose readings just going down. Are you sure you remember having heard the word 'zero'?

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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:04 am

The graphics, at minute 9:41 look like Gas Station pumps, and the left most was glucose, the middle protein, and the right pump was lipid... Discussing where energy comes from after stopping food... (Later, 36:30 they repeat that glucose is exhausted within 24 hours, and point out that experiments with animals (penguins first) showed they only catabalise 4% of protein during a long fast.)

The beginning of this discussion is minute 9 (9:00). At 9:41 the documentary states that "glucose is exhausted after one day?"

The thing that confused me the most is the statements "the brain absolutely needs glucose" but that "lipids provide an alternative brain fuel - ketones." Does the brain require glucose or not?

Also, since the high B5 supplementation apparently avoids ketosis, how does that work? (So far in my case, glucose has remained a constant straight line around 140 mg/dl. So while there is no ketosis, there is glucose in my blood, probably from the "liver glucogensis mechanism".

Then around minutes 35 - the discussion of safety, how the body uses protein, but only 4%. Most of the energy burned comes from fats.

I plan to do another fast when our new B5 drink mix product is ready. I will try to fast long enough to exhaust my liver and investigate happens when the glucose (eventually) drops.

The only other effect to report is that I require less sleep. Basically, I have been waking up an hour early, ready to go.
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#4  Post by pamojja » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:11 pm

ofonorow wrote:The graphics, at minute 9:41 look like Gas Station pumps, and the left most was glucose, the middle protein, and the right pump was lipid... Discussing where energy comes from after stopping food... (Later, 36:30 they repeat that glucose is exhausted within 24 hours, and point out that experiments with animals (penguins first) showed they only catabalise 4% of protein during a long fast.)

The beginning of this discussion is minute 9 (9:00). At 9:41 the documentary states that "glucose is exhausted after one day?"

The thing that confused me the most is the statements "the brain absolutely needs glucose" but that "lipids provide an alternative brain fuel - ketones." Does the brain require glucose or not?


I understood that to mean that glucose from any intake is exhausted (=zero intake). Where then gluconeogenesis kicks in to produce glucose from protein, which then maintains blood glucose levels (=normal glucose levels, at least far from zero).

Few days ago I read on the blog of Dr. Malcom Kendricks that he discussed how the brain can survive without glucose with well known other keto-experts (can't find it again). Their consensus seem to have been that the brain only needs 40g of glucose a day, and that can easily produced through gluconeogenesis from protein on a ketogenic diet.

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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:44 am

glucose is exhausted within 24 hours


You are correct that they didn't specifically mentioned blood levels, but technically as soon as someone stops eating, their exogenous glucose supply is cut off, so why mentioned 24 hours to "exhaustion"? In any event, at least in my case, glucose remained at my constant "level while sleeping" during the fast (now 8 days).

From other knowledge, we know that people generally go into ketosis after 2 to 3 days on a no-carb (e.g. Atkins-style) diet. I didn't think that would/could happen if the body can generate all its energy from glucose in the blood? As I mentioned, when the new B5 Fat Burn product is available (soon) I plan to go on a fast long enough to exhaust the liver and see how low the blood glucose goes.

From another part of the documentary, they calculated that with the 4% loss of the body's protein, the maximum length of a fast (before death) is 40 days.

To sum up, (as I have to slowly start eating today in preparation for a real meal tomorrow), my blood sugar remained constant (at the level it is "set to" during sleep). With the high vitamin B5, there was no hunger, little weakness (more of a light headed feeling) , and no side effects other than boredom. (Eating is a habit. You have to find something else to do.) I took all my supplements and changed my vitamin C to mostly sodium ascorbate. (Added a slice of cheese to avoid the reflux from the supplements. Sounds like the Germans added 250 calories to first few days of their fasts for the same reason.) Stopped all my insulin (I am not a true Type I!) and lowered my hydrocortisone to 20 mg (from 35 mg) without any noticeable effect. And I started waking up fresh one hour earlier than usual.


Afterthought

My inability to make a lot of insulin might have made my fasting experience different than most people regarding glucose levels in the blood.
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#6  Post by Johnwen » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:59 am

johnwen, I haven't researched this, but verbally I was told that the c-peptide shows that I am still making some of my own insulin. True?


TRUE!!
Sounds like your pancreas is waking up! :D

Now, A question has your urine been a lot darker during your fast??

Next are you drinking lot’s of water???

Looks like your liver is taking a little hit during this fast!
Would like to see blood work after about a week off fast!

Now for Friday’s dinner date!! EAT LIGHT!! (Or you’ll be sorry Saturday!!)

Did I mention ?? “Drink Water More then normal during fast!!!” :!:
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:32 am

Johnwen wrote:

Now, A question has your urine been a lot darker during your fast??

NO

Next are you drinking lot’s of water???

YES (intentionally - may be why my urine is yellow-clear)

Looks like your liver is taking a little hit during this fast!
Would like to see blood work after about a week off fast!

I could go through life extension - any number in particular?

Now for Friday’s dinner date!! EAT LIGHT!! (Or you’ll be sorry Saturday!!)

Did I mention ?? “Drink Water More then normal during fast!!!” :!:


First try - I wound up fasting about 7 days. Ate light last night - and slept 45 minutes longer this morhing, and don't feel as good as I did during the fast. Sort of bloated.

Next time, after our new vitamin B5 powdered drink mix arrives, I am going to fast longer, hoping to run out of glucagon stores in the liver (or what ever causes glucogenesis) to see whether my measured glucose ever drops, and how long it takes. I can run before and after blood work. Anything besides CBC?
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#8  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:58 am

First try - I wound up fasting about 7 days. Ate light last night - and slept 45 minutes longer this morhing, and don't feel as good as I did during the fast. Sort of bloated.


Now you know what I was talking about when I said;

Now for Friday’s dinner date!! EAT LIGHT!! (Or you’ll be sorry Saturday!!)


Hope you ate some breakfast today which would help with tonight!

Anything besides CBC?


ALT: Here’s some reading!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alanine_transaminase

AST:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartate_transaminase

ALT/AST RATIO

These are tests that give a over view of liver function if there off then there is further test’s that can pin point a problem but if these are in range then things should be OK!

On glucose levels! The first store of glucose for energy is Adipose tissue (Belly fat) thru the process of Lipolysis after you burn up this store then you move into Gluconeogenesis. Here’s some reading on how the body converts fat into glucose!

https://www.sportsci.org/encyc/adipose/adipose.html

This is the first to go and as it’s being used up is the reason for Rapid Weight Lose during early stages of fasting. A lot of people see this and get all excited then as the weight drop tapers off they go “What’s going ON??”
Hope this helps!
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:48 am

Question: Can a person get into ketosis (fat burning) with blood sugars like I measured during my fast (e.g. 140+mg/dl)

Found this (turns out a lot of people have this question, or notice high blood sugars during ketosis??) https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/fasting-blood-glucose-higher so it seems it is possible to burn fat (be in ketosis) with elevated blood sugar.


1. Relax, it is normal — call it “adaptive glucose sparing”
“We definitely see that in people who are doing low carb long term, the majority will find that their fasting blood glucose becomes their highest value of the day,” says Dr. Sarah Hallberg. “They are not actually having issues with blood sugar. They are doing really well. But if you are looking at a log of 24 hours of blood glucose you will see a high first thing in the morning and then a steady decline throughout the day, with no big excursions [in glucose levels] even after meals.”

The scientific name is “physiologic insulin resistance” and it’s a good thing — unlike “pathologic insulin resistance.”


Prior to converting to the ketogenic diet, your muscles were the major sites to soak up and use glucose in the blood for energy. On the long-term keto diet, however, they now prefer fat as fuel. So the muscles are resisting the action of insulin to bring sugar into cells for energy, saying, in essence: “We don’t want or need your sugar anymore, so move it along.” Hence, the slightly elevated, but generally stable, glucose circulating in the blood.1

Where is that glucose coming from when you consume no sugar and only leafy veggie carbs in your diet? Your liver, through gluconeogenesis — the creation of glucose from non-carbohydrate sources such as lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids from proteins. It is a natural protective process that got homo sapiens through hundreds of thousands of years of feasts and famines.

“There is no essential requirement for dietary carbohydrate because humans possess a robust capacity to adapt to low-carbohydrate availability,” says Dr. Jeff Volek. In the liver of a keto-adapted person, he notes: “ketone production increases dramatically to displace glucose as the brain’s primary energy source, while fatty acids supply the majority of energy for skeletal muscle. Glucose production from non-carbohydrate sources via gluconeogenesis supplies carbons for the few cells dependent on glycolysis [using sugar for energy.]”2
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#10  Post by Johnwen » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:26 pm

Ok! Owen;
So I think your ready to look at the big picture!
I was just going to go into the two Glycos but I figured since your into the big picture in your understanding, let’s do it the easy way!
VIDEOS and some reading!
So here is a link to get you started! Now if you don’t have the time or your brain is about to explode! :roll:
You can just read the first one and on the left side there is a list of the videos and reviews in text form in sequence.

This course should give you a good understanding of how all this works! :shock: :? :D

Here’s the first link to a Text on Pentose Phosphate Pathway;
Note the first on the list is a practice test, you can try it or save for last or do it both ways and see if you got a gained a good grasp on the subject!

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/m ... te-pathway
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:48 am

Could a link (or 2) be missing in the previous post? You mention "the first one.."

Here is where I am at. We are trying to prove Hong Kong doctor Leung's conjecture that high dose (10+ g) of vitamin B5 daily promotes fat burning - safely (i.e. without creating any ketones.) We already (think we) know that this dosage of B5 eliminates hunger (certainly cravings) and avoids weakness. (Leung's study ran for 1 year with 100 people. Only side effect? A general feeling of well-being :-)

There is a world out there in great shape, using ketosis as a tool to measure their ability to burn fat. If we take that measure away, what else could we invent as a tool to measure fat burning? That would allow a person to know they are burning fat (rather than burning glucose)?

Other than strictly counting carbs.. which may be the only easy option. (We are also hoping that since burning fat is more efficient than burning glucose - with B5 - that measures like increased workout reps and endurance may work for athletes and body builders.)

Since eating carbs (more than 50 or 60 grams) is known to take people out of the fat burning mode (today, out of ketosis), it seemed logical that perhaps blood sugar could be used to reflect the state of fat burning (if the ketone stripts cannot - no ketosis). Well, the counter-intuitive reality I think I learned yesterday is that one can still be in ketosis (fat burning) with high levels of glucose in the blood. The reason makes sense - once muscles kick over to fat burn, they become insulin resistant.. (Your missing links maybe?)


Evolution apparently uses carbs/glucose for energy - when available, and wants us to store fat for emergencies. I keep reading that fat burning is more efficient (than burning glucose), and there must be drugs/herbs out their that promote insulin resistance leading to fat burning.

Question: Is there a substitute for ketones to measure fat burning?
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#12  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:42 am

What I wrote;

You can just read the first one and on the left side there is a list of the videos and reviews in text form in sequence.


The answer to your question about a link is “on the left side there is a list of the videos and reviews in text form in sequence.”

Click on link, when it opens, on the left side of the screen is a menu if you click on the box with the arrow it’s take you there. Or on the top of the page below the money campaign stuff it’ll take you to the next subject.

However since your looking for an answer to a specific part of the big picture
This video section shows you how that part works. See if this helps with your understanding of how this works. It’s about a 12 min. video!

https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/m ... neogenesis
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#13  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:25 pm

Ok Owen;
If you watched the video you should have got an idea how this balancing act works.
You should have seen that a reduction of ATP is a cause for an increase of Gluconeogenesis.

Here the wiki on ATP ;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

Now your wondering what all this has to do with B5??
Answer: A LOT!

You already mentioned that B5 increases CoA but! The process to make this conversion requires a high amount of ATP which sets up a deficit of ATP.
This reduction triggers the body to breakdown fats thru Gluconeogensis to produce more sugars. More produced sugars raise the blood levels and reduce fats. That’s the simple part!
Here’s how B5 is used to produce CoA.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4950986/

I summarized this for ease of understanding but as I think your starting to see the whole process is a complex balancing act comprising of many actors.
But I figured if your plans are marketing a product, you should know the whole picture for many reasons.

My suggestion would be to run thru the course I posted and then expand out with the knowledge in your back pocket!!
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#14  Post by ofonorow » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:37 am

Thank you johnwen! I just finished the first video - on the balancing act, and for the first time I think I at least partially understand glucagon! (So in my case, my own production of glucagon must be at least adequate, right? i.e., to keep those blood sugar levels constant around 140 mg/dl during the fast.) Coincidentally an "auto immune" lab test came back (I'll dig it out if interested) where I had zero autoimmune factors, and my endrocin said that means I am not a Type I diabetic. I am producing some insulin.

And digressing for a moment, we have that Type I diabetic who tried Cardio-C (w/proline) who claims his sugars jumped way up. (He But found that blood glucose didn't rise on Vitamin C/lysine alone.) The assumption is that proline somehow promotes the production of glucagon... RalphDMan said he saw a patent for using proline to increase glucagon, but until this video, I was in the dark. (Not that I am seeing much light, but like you said, this is foundational knowledge.)

So are we finding that mega-proline may tip the balance towards gluconeogenesis? (And if so, why aren't I skinny already?)

Now I have more homework to do - studying your ATP links. Thx. My previous knowledge is that ATP is required in the mitochondria for energy. As the phosphate links in ATP are broken, energy is released. The little known coenzyme that is required in every cell (ubiquitously) to break the phosphate link? CoQ10!
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Re: The "Lost" Science of Fasting - My experience

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:37 pm

Continuing johnwen... So, Vitamin B5/CoA is part of the ATP energy system? This may explain the steady weight loss Leung measured in 100 people over one year on 10,000 mg of vitamin B5. The effect on keeping metabolism from slowing, and not necessarily because of more efficient fat burning... Heh?

Now that I am in to Ari Whitten's book FOREVER FAT LOSS, he uses lot of words and repetition to make a few major points. Main point numero uno: Diet fails because our metabolism slows down on fewer calories.

Ari writes that the lack of understanding of what causes obesity, an understanding that he says took him "15 years" to uncover, can be found in the scientific literature. He claims this why he says almost all "experts" tell people the logical, but wrong thing: Eat less/exercise more, and ouila. Rapid fat loss... Except, all the weight comes back -- even more. The body on fewer calories adjusts and slows the metabolism. This takes time, but then fewer calories can actually lead to more fat storage/weight gain.

So keeping the metabolism from slowing is key to long-term sustained fat loss. It just may very well be (thank you johnwen) that vitamin B5's connection in this area (to ATP) , preventing a slower metabolism, is important, but not appreciated. The other areas (i.e. brain) may also be impacting by high-dose B5.

I am early in the book, but his reasons modern societies taken in so many extra calories (more than what we would take in if hunger let us know when we needed more fuel - as it was intended) has two primary reasons. Neurological (what happens in the brain) and what happens inside cells (e.g. hormonal).

As far as the brain, Ari is convincing that food addictions, while technically not chemical addictions, over-ride normal hunger signals and activate pleasure areas (through the release of dopamine -- like a chemical addiction.) His page-long listing of what is really in some food additives is telling. He claims that these additives are designed to stimulate the brain's pleasure areas, making eating certain foods an addiction.

(Aside, does anyone remember Robert Becks' "BioTuner? The device Dr. Beck claimed activates feedback areas in the brain, releasing neurotransmitters (like dopamine, there are hundreds, if not thousands, that can help break serious chemical addictions? But I digress.)
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