Moderator: ofonorow
Hi Owen,ofonorow wrote:In the Willis guinea pig experiments on the reversibility of atherosclerosis, it is true that vitamin C alone was the surprising single factor. But when Willis progressed to humans, only 1/3 of the subjects experienced reversals in their atherosclerotic plaques. (in 1/3 of his human subjects, their heart conditions got worse.)
If you remember the very first case Pauling reported (and on the Video - I will look for the snippet) the National Academy of Sciences Medal Winner had heart disease, despite his 5 grams of vitamin C daily. He still had angina and trouble walking. The first case is in this video snippet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8up1U ... r_embedded )
After Pauling suggested he add 5 grams of lysine, a month later this scientist was chopping wood.
davids1 wrote:Hi Owen,ofonorow wrote:In the Willis guinea pig experiments on the reversibility of atherosclerosis, it is true that vitamin C alone was the surprising single factor. But when Willis progressed to humans, only 1/3 of the subjects experienced reversals in their atherosclerotic plaques. (in 1/3 of his human subjects, their heart conditions got worse.)
If you remember the very first case Pauling reported (and on the Video - I will look for the snippet) the National Academy of Sciences Medal Winner had heart disease, despite his 5 grams of vitamin C daily. He still had angina and trouble walking. The first case is in this video snippet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8up1U ... r_embedded )
After Pauling suggested he add 5 grams of lysine, a month later this scientist was chopping wood.
Three points:
1) I [for one] do not find it "surprising" at all that the "single factor" of "a large amount" of ascorbate reversed the guinea pig's atherosclerosis.
2) Do you know [and/or can you direct me to the study] if Willis used the same proportional amount of vitamin C with the human subjects as with the guinea pigs? Because, why would he get those results, e.g. some people got worse? Personally, I have complete faith that, as Levy put it, "I am absolutely convinced of one thing -- when enough vitamin C is given...for a long enough time, vitamin C helps virtually every condition..." [emphasis mine] Further, the humans were probably not as healthy as the guinea pigs [we usually are not], and therefore needed an even larger [proportional] amount of ascorbate, e.g. a Bowel Tolerance dose [if it was being given orally].
As has happened so many times, in so-called "objective" studies, again quoting Levy, "...when tiny doses have been tested....researchers often report that vitamin C had no positive clinical effect. Many seemingly unethical studies appear to have employed this fact to discredit vitamin C's efficacy by purposely testing with very small amounts. The researchers then conclude that vitamin C was of no value at all, rather than just ineffective at a tiny dose." In my particular case, "5 grams" [or even 10, for that matter] would be a "tiny" dose indeed!
3) In the case of the scientist, we do not know that an additional 5 grams of ascorbic acid would not have had the same beneficial effect as the additional 5 grams of lysine. True? I am most certainly not questioning lysine's efficacy [when combined with adequate amounts of ascorbate] in reversing atherosclerosis. I was simply trying to point out, in this case to Zarna, that there is scientific evidence that ascorbate alone could accomplish the same beneficial result.
Just saying,
David
Johnwen wrote:When they operated on you in 92 what did they do to you??
My assumption would be that they did a bypass if so where did they harvest the graft from.
If your not sure is there a long scar on one of your legs??
This is kind of important since there is a condition called Neo-intimal hyperplasia which is were the body makes an attempt to grow endothiel cells in the bypass graft and gets it clogged up.
Hi Zarna,Zarna wrote:MY QUESTION IS WILL THIS WORK OWEN? AM I ON THE RIGHT TRACK? AND AT WHAT INTERVALS SHOULD I BE TAKING THESE DOSES? HOURLY OR TWO HOURLY? SHOULD THE VIT C BE SUPPLIED CONTINUOUSLY TO ARTERIES OR CAN THAT BE CHANGED? I TAKE THIS DOSE IN 700ML OF WATER. 4. If either of you can throw a light on this I will be very happy....So I have put faith in LINUS PSULING philosophy. I would love to hear from you both David and Owen.
To quote Dr. Levy [again], Zarna:...on the V-C dosages...it would be good to stay as high as posible. [emphasis mine]
So [from my view], Zarna, Bowel Tolerance is the KEY! Simply keep ingesting as much ascorbic acid as your body is willing to accept/absorb, as often as it is willing to accept/absorb it! I do believe this will give you the best chance of successfully resolving your health situation [as is (practicably) available].The three most important considerations in effective vitamin C therapy are "Dose, Dose, and Dose." If you don't take enough, you won't get the desired effects. Period!...you will rarely ever fail to observe a DRAMATIC response...IF you take a large enough dose for a long enough time. [emphasis mine]
Yes, "we are all different in how much vitamin C we require,", and even our bodily situation is constantly changing, e.g. hour-by-hour. Therefore, it is difficult [and probably impossible] to say just how much ascorbic acid you should ingest at any particular time. But your body knows, and will indicate that fact/situation to you via its Bowel Tolerance reaction. And I agree with Owen's recommendation for large doses of vitamin E, given your leg pain.We are all different in how much vitamin C we required....Another thought. Seriously misguided negative publicity has been frightening people from taking high doses of vitamin E. This is a serious mistake, especially for heart patients. If I had pain in my legs, I would follow Pauling's advice and make sure that I was taking 400 to 800 iu or more.
Johnwen wrote:Z
Owen and Dave gave some pretty good advice on the V-C dosages and it would be good to stay as high as posible.
However in addition your going to have to add some supps. and possibly some scripted meds to help.
Heres what happens when they use a vein for a graft after a well the body senses the extra vessel and wants it to do it's part in the production of nitric oxide. To do this it try's to grow more endothiel cells in the vessel (vein graft) however veins can't have endothiel cells inside them. But that doesn't stop the body from trying in doing this. The cells grow around the junction and since they can't go inside the tube they keep growing around the opening and eventually block it and your back to square one with a blocked graft and a blocked artery. Usually before you go into a full blown heart attack you start experience the symptoms of a clogged artery Ie: shortness of breath, chest pain that radiates etc! Is this common? Yes! 90% of all bypass grafts will close down in this manner. Some as early as one year others can go for over 10 years.
Heres the plan for prevention! You increase your production of nitric oxide! So the body don't look for more!!
In scripted meds the use of nitro, But the fast acting type is a shot in the dark. You need something in a extended release such as Imdur (Isobride mononitrate) this works pretty good.
As for supps. L-arginine 2x a day plus 10mg policosonol works pretty good. Or L-citrulline goes throught the 9 step process to produce nitric so it takes longer and you don't get the levels as fast a Arg.& Poli but it's good for prevention in the long run.
In an emergency placing a DE stent in the bypass buy's time but when the poison wears off the process starts all over.
The body does what the body does.
Hope this helps with your understanding.
Johnwen wrote:I concur with Owen!
Anything over 6 Grams could very well cause stomach, GI problems!
ofonorow wrote:always a good idea when changing significant dosages - to wean, change slowly over time..
ofonorow wrote:I was suggesting - now for others - that you first try reducing to 12 g lysine, then 10 grams the next day, etc. until you reach 6 - just in case the body had built up some kind of dependency. Probably an unnecessary caution.
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