New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Discussion of the benefits and disadvantages of commercial and homemade (DIY) liposomal vitamin C

Moderator: ofonorow

norma67
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#76  Post by norma67 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:31 pm

I have signed in to this forum because I would like to share with you my experiences of producing liposomal vitamin c.
When I learned about liposomal vitamin C and the possibility to produce it on your own, I started to study the many researches and patents available online to understand better the liposomes and the processes, and I came out with a method very like to the one discussed here. This was in 2010, and I have personally used it several times for seasonal disturbs, cold, flu and so.

I have used the heat method, heating serves to open the chain ordered phospholipids, carrying them in a disordered state (liquid crystals) and when cooling down, the vesicles are formed spontaneously while stirring.
One of the problems of liposomes is the rupture of the membrane, and the alcohol and the tocopherol help to stabilize and give more elasticity to the liposome.
I have divided the ingredients in two phases, where the first is the lecithin phase, which will be heated to a liquid state. At that point I add the second phase, which is the ascorbic acid dissolved in water, I do it in this way to protect the C vitamin from the heating process. I have used a a total quantityto of 200 ml, which is easy to divide in 20 portions of 1 g of C vitamin.

first phase: (milky, smooth)
20 g lecithin ( have used one available in Italy)
0,8 g tocopherol (dense liquid E vitamin)
16 g alcohol (ethanol 94°)
33 ml distilled water

second phase:
20 g ascorbic acid dissolved in 110 ml distilled water

Leave in a beaker glass the all the ingredients of the first phase to soak for 4-12 hours, becoming a milky mixture.
In another glass the C vitamin is dissolved in the water (room temperature) at the moment of use.
Heat the lecithin mixture to about 42-45° C (about 107-113° F) in a water bath, just above the point that the solution liquefies.
Take the glass out of the bath and add slowly the C vitamin solution while stirring delicately, the mixture is automatically cooled down, and once the solution starts to emulsify and gets thicker, then shake the glass faster in a rotatory way.
The preparation of the liposomes already occurs with cooling below 40 ° C, called the transition temperature, the point where the phospholipids pass from liquid crystal to gel and the liposomes are formed spontaneously.
When the solution has reached room temperature, it is a shiny and viscous gel.
I don't use the blender at all.
I leave it for a few hours in the fridge before I put it in the ultrasonic bath
The ultrasonic bath serves to to decrease the size of the vesicles, to make them smaller. I leave it in the ultrasonic bath (mine is 38kHz 100watt) for 20-30 min, in a water bath at room temperature.

I have done the tests with ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate, and both worked well.
The lecithin is the same quantity as the C vitamin, I have adjusted the proportion at 1:1 of the lecithin/C vitamin because it gives a smooth gel, but I think it depends of the type of lecithin used, when I tried 30 g of lecithin it became a very thick gel.

The alcohol is used as a plasticizer of the liposome-forming component and is an aid to prepare a uniform melt. It is also possible to use glycerol or a mix of the two, The alcohol has also a conservative action can be used at up to 10 % of the total wieght.
The E vitamin has a protective and anti-aggregate effect, the ideal proportion between tocopherol/lecithin are from 1:20 up to 1:33
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3813372/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9608397
http://www.scientific.net/AMR.236-238.2207

Another consideration I have done, is the importance of the cholesterol in the preparation of liposomes, as a stabilizing agent, because it gives an established membrane and makes it more resistant.
I learned that in stead of the cholesterol can be used other fatty acids, better if long-chain, and phytosterols. The most recommended is stearic acid, which is a long-chain fatty acid, the proportion between a fatty acid and lecithin varies from 33:1 to 2,5:1

I have tried to produce the liposomes with a food grade shea butter (rich in stearic acid (35-45%), and other acids, sterols and E vitamin) and also with a food grade coconut oil, which it is rich in lauric acid ( a middle chain fatty acid (44-52 %) and other acids). I added 1,30 g (15:1) in addition to the recipe above, both have worked well.
If someone wants to experience this procedure, or has suggestions to my thoughts of how or if adding a coconut oil or any other oil or butter, let me know your comments.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2621.2002.tb08820.x/abstract;jsessionid=CF8244DF72E48F3DD73D25C751FFF8FD.f02t02

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2013/RA/c3ra23411h#!divAbstract

These are some of the references that have been helpful for me, taken from various texts:
-the liposomes can vary from clear to milky, depending of the composition and the particle size. If it has a bluish shiny shade, this means that the sample particles are homogeneous; a grayish mat shade indicates the presence of a non-liposomal dispersion and is more likely a reverse dispersion of the micro crystals.
-An aqueous type surface tension, a slight foam formation, and rapid increase of bubbles are characteristic of liposome solutions.
-If it flows away from the glass rapidly indicates the presence of a not-liposomical dispersion caused by the hydrophobic surface.
-The liposomal gel does not dissolve when added in a glass of water, but after some time it is compacted on the bottom of the glass.
-The Liposome size is important. The too small vesicles do not contain adequate levels of nutritious substance (such as Vitamin C), while the oversized vesicles are not absorbed properly by the membrane, so the nutritious substance is not transported through the intestinal mucosa. the optimum range is of 100-400 nanometers to balance the capacity of nutrition substances and absorption.
-Sonicated liposomes with a more heterogeneous size, generally showed a lower uptake in the liver and in the spleen and the highest level of absorption in the blood in comparative with liposomes less heterogeneous.

I want to share my experiences, I am not a scientist but just a curious person and I desire to discuss and improve it, I am still on the work and open for ideas and inspirations. My studies end where all yours end, with the impossibility to test it under a microscope to know the real quantity of encapsulation, but what is most important for me is that it works and does its job.

pounce
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#77  Post by pounce » Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:09 pm

norma67 wrote:My studies end where all yours end, with the impossibility to test it under a microscope to know the real quantity of encapsulation, but what is most important for me is that it works and does its job.


Thanks for taking the time to post your experiences and process.

I noted assumptions similar to most.

Lecithin products are all different. Can you share the product you are using and perhaps the PC content?

You have not tested your liposomes so you don't know the size of them or quantity, but you feel confident your process produces liposomes of a certain size.

Are you interested in having your projects tested by a lab? In previous posts I've mentioned I'm interested in collaborating and having a group test.

I noticed you use heat for the lecithin to mix. Have you tried mixing the 94% ethanol full strength into the lecithin? I find it melts in a few minutes. No heat needed. I see that you consider the heat important. Do you have any concerns about the high temp impacting the C?

norma67
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#78  Post by norma67 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:53 pm

thanks for your reply, I 'll try to answer your questions as possible
I noticed you use heat for the lecithin to mix. Have you tried mixing the 94% ethanol full strength into the lecithin? I find it melts in a few minutes. No heat needed. I see that you consider the heat important. Do you have any concerns about the high temp impacting the C?

the lecithin can be dissolved in the ethanol, while in cold water no, this is why the lecithin needs the hydration for some hours.
The alcohol isn't used because it dissolves the lecithin, but because it gives a smoother solution, and as it is suggested in some studies they use the alcohol up to a certain percentage, I would keep it into that range.
Some one suggests up to 10 %, and this is what I found regarding higher concentrations:
“If the final concentration of ethanol exceeds 10–20% by volume, the SUVs either will not form, or they will grow in size soon after formation.”
( Methods in Molecular Biology, VOLUME 199, Liposome Methods and Protocols, p.14,7 Edited by Subhash C. Basu and Manju Basu)
The heat is a part of the process to form the liposomes and it is not only used to melt the lechitin:
“The preparation of the liposomes already occurs with cooling below 40° C, called the transition temperature, the point where the phospholipids pass from liquid crystal to gel and the liposomes are formed spontaneously”.
The liposomes are formed when a form of energy is introduced to the lecithin solution, this can be by shaking, or by heating, I do not discuss which one is best, but what I wanted to introduce is the possibility to add other substances as tocopherol or a fatty acid to give more stability and resistance to the vesicles.
This is another article, that has been useful for me: http://www.cmbl.org.pl/pdf/Vol10_p711.pdf

You are right that the lecithin products are all different, the one I have used is a commercial product, available here (I'm in Italy), unfortunately it doesn't say the quantity of the PC. I can see in the discussion, that someone has adjusted the lecithin quantity, so it is must be a variable that each one has to adjust respect of the product used.

If the C vitamin will be damaged by the heat?
The temperature of the lecithin mix doesn't get above 45°C, and it will drop as soon as the C vitamin solution is added, so I don't think the C vitamin will be affected.

In the first post I forgot to add the pH of the solution, the lecithin mix without the c vitamin had pH7, after the addition of the C vitamin solution, which was pH2, the final pH was 6.
I also did the test with sodium bicarbonate. I took a sample of 5 ml of the final mixture and added 10 drops of a bicarbonate solution (2g bicarbonate in 30 ml water), did not foam, PH 6.

pounce
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#79  Post by pounce » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:14 am

Thank you for that document link. Its very interesting and I hadn't seen it before. I'll try out the method. I'll have to lean more about the transition temperature. I see that there is comment about adding the component was the lipid mixture cools, but just about the tc. They are suggesting 60-70c. I was concerned about oxidation of the C, but I just read some materials on testing the degradation of c at various temps and up in this area for under an hour was maybe 5%. That is probably acceptable.

I've looked around at the various commercial lecithin products meant for the pharma industry and they have some very specific ones with much higher PC content than what you might find as a product meant for consumers. Greater than 50%. I haven't gone so far as to try to obtain any because I would assume they order would need to be substantial.

The article mentions % glycerol. It was my interpretation that the importance was similar to what you are suggesting with the tocopherol. I have seen glycerin as a component of commercial liposomal c. I'm curious if you abandoned the idea of using glycerol for any particular reason.

Thanks again for posting. I believe the contribution is very valuable.

norma67
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#80  Post by norma67 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:34 pm

I know there are various products with a high PC content, but since this thread treats a DIY method, I suggest to use a commercial lecithin, which can be easily available.
I have chosen the alcohol because it is easy to find for me, and it has also a conservative effect.
But as I understand in some states the alcohol is not sold, then it could be good alternative to use glycerol (which is also an alcohol).
The tocopherol is lipophilic, as well as the fatty acids (or other oil-soluble vitamins, lipids, cholesterol) and they are entrapped in the oil-like portion of the phospholipid creating a more plastic membrane as well as it has an anti-aggregate effect.
Since the C vitamin is water-soluble, it will attach to the hydrophilic part and by consequence it is protected inside the vesicle when the liposomes are formed.

pounce
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#81  Post by pounce » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:53 pm

norma67 wrote:I know there are various products with a high PC content, but since this thread treats a DIY method, I suggest to use a commercial lecithin, which can be easily available.
I have chosen the alcohol because it is easy to find for me, and it has also a conservative effect.
But as I understand in some states the alcohol is not sold, then it could be good alternative to use glycerol (which is also an alcohol).
The tocopherol is lipophilic, as well as the fatty acids (or other oil-soluble vitamins, lipids, cholesterol) and they are entrapped in the oil-like portion of the phospholipid creating a more plastic membrane as well as it has an anti-aggregate effect.
Since the C vitamin is water-soluble, it will attach to the hydrophilic part and by consequence it is protected inside the vesicle when the liposomes are formed.


I'm looking at various products to try your method. For the tocopherol I am seeing a number of supplements in gelcaps available, but I'm not sure if it makes a difference with d-alpha, beta, delta, gamma types. What type of product are you using or would you recommend?

norma67
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#82  Post by norma67 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:11 pm

It is alpha-tocopherol, I have used a pharmaceutical pure E vitamin for cosmetic purpose, which is sold in bottles, it is a dense liquid.
I think the gelcaps can be used as well, though control that it is pure E vitamin, and extracting the content from the caps.

pounce
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#83  Post by pounce » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:24 pm

norma67 wrote:It is alpha-tocopherol, I have used a pharmaceutical pure E vitamin for cosmetic purpose, which is sold in bottles, it is a dense liquid.
I think the gelcaps can be used as well, though control that it is pure E vitamin, and extracting the content from the caps.


Thanks for confirming. I have found bulk d-alpha tocopherol locally.

A tip for finding high percentage PC lecithin is to search for bulk PC powder. It wont be labeled lecithin, but it will be the ingredient. That's how I find 40% and higher PC lecithin.

norma67
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:54 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#84  Post by norma67 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:11 pm

So you will use the PC powder or common lecithin? remember that it can give different results, it could be an idea to try both and see the difference.
I attend to hear your results.

pounce
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#85  Post by pounce » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:47 pm

norma67 wrote:So you will use the PC powder or common lecithin? remember that it can give different results, it could be an idea to try both and see the difference.
I attend to hear your results.


I'm treating the PC powder as lecithin with 40% standardized PC because that's what it is in my product. Lecithin. The PC is the component of lecithin we are interested in for liposomes. I believe you want about 350 - 400mg for each gram of C. If you don't know what's in your lecithin you can't really guess at the right ratio.

I have in the past used "standard" lecithin from soy and sunflower that makes no claims of PC content.

gwynnegibbons
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:26 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#86  Post by gwynnegibbons » Sat May 14, 2016 10:35 am

Hi everyone. I have recently purchased an ultrasonic cleaner, but I did not realise until it arrived that it does not have inbuilt heating. My question is, does this mean the process cannot be done successfully? From reading Chris' site, it seemed the heat was primarily to dissolve the lecithin into the alcohol/water mixture. Could I therefore do this separately and continue on with the process? Many thanks!

pounce
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#87  Post by pounce » Sat May 14, 2016 1:37 pm

Things heat up from the sonication. You can if you desire simply put hot water in the bath.

dazed1
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:18 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#88  Post by dazed1 » Tue May 24, 2016 8:52 am

Hi guys, i would like to know how much vitamin c are you actually getting from the high potency vitamin c method,

Is it 16% - the end result? or like 1 gram liposomal c from 6ml solution?

Also one more thing, i will be using sunflower lecithin, does this contain vitamin e, and further improve the shelf life - and efficacy of the product?

Is 1 month way to long maybe and i should aim for 2 weeks batches instead of 1 month? how much of a degradation should this 30 days do? thanks.

Marcus River
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:05 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#89  Post by Marcus River » Thu May 26, 2016 1:12 pm

So I am wondering what your thoughts are on using liquid sunflower lecithin and mixing it with some 200 proof alcohol (as described in the patent) to act as a preservative and then adding to the Vitamin C & Water mix? Where in the USA does one purchase 200 proof alcohol (that's relatively cheap) which is fit for consumption?

pounce
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:28 pm
Contact:

Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#90  Post by pounce » Tue May 31, 2016 9:16 pm

dazed1 wrote:Hi guys, i would like to know how much vitamin c are you actually getting from the high potency vitamin c method,

Is it 16% - the end result? or like 1 gram liposomal c from 6ml solution?

Also one more thing, i will be using sunflower lecithin, does this contain vitamin e, and further improve the shelf life - and efficacy of the product?

Is 1 month way to long maybe and i should aim for 2 weeks batches instead of 1 month? how much of a degradation should this 30 days do? thanks.


Weigh all parts of the mix by grams. Divide the total weight by number of grams of C. That is weight of one gram of C liposomal. If you want to convert it to volume weigh it out.

I personally would not use any lecithin where you don't know the PC content or any other content.

I keep it in the fridge. I don't feel 1 month is unreasonable.


Return to “Liposomal Vitamin C”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron