Am I dosing correctly?

This forum will focus on the interesting topic of titrating oral vitamin C intake to so-called bowel tolerance, the point just prior to the onset of diarrhea

Moderator: ofonorow

Zenith

Am I dosing correctly?

Post Number:#1  Post by Zenith » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:13 pm

I had no idea what to expect when using maintenance levels of Vit C and would appreciate any feedback. I have gradually buffered up my dosage on a daily basis until I have reached what I consider bowel tolerance. I am now into my fourth day on a weekly programme at this level which is between 50 and 60 grams per day, split into six equal doses over an 18 hour waking period.

My rhinitis condition has now heightened to a new level of discomfort. I have nasal polyps which have expanded appropriate to the aggravation and I have continual flu-type symptoms. My sinuses are full and my nasal discharge is continual. It was suggested I try the home-made nasal spray, but because of the extreme sensitivity in the lining of my nose, this was like pouring in acid. I can just to say tolerate snorting a small amount of VitC powder, but that only seems to exacerbate my condition. Because of the continual flow of mucus, I have a nasal drip which has infected my lungs, so on top of all this, I now have a harsh cough. This has only come about since taking up this programme and I doubt whether coincidence comes into it.

On the plus side, the mucus now produced is not as infected as it used to be, being only slightly discoloured compared to a greeny texture before.

My questions are:

(a) Is this just a case of VitC moving out the problem, a bit like detoxing?

(b) If the answer to (a) is yes, or maybe, do I stick with the bowel tolerance dose until I see a change? This condition is extremely uncomfortable, not to mention the amount of gas this creates, and I would hate to see more than a week's dosing at this high level.

I appreciate we all react differently to VitC. My condition is deep rooted and I don't expect miracles. My body must be extremely toxic to have created this condition and I'm now experiencing symptoms similar to cases when it was at its most virulent.

Thanks for reading this.

Mike O

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Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:45 pm

I suppose the vitamin C could make your condition feel worse (as in a detox) before you begin to feel better.

Where do you live? If in Northern CA, you should make an appointment to see Dr. Robert Cathcart (http://www.orthomed.com). (Remind us, how do we know this isn't a weird coincidience and that you haven't picked up the flu?)

You are an unusual case and Dr. Cathcart would be my recommendation. I have spoken to people from all over the country (and the world) who say they are patients and fly to see Dr. Cathcart.

Notice from Cathcart's titrating chart (http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm) that the two conditions in your bowel tolerancer range are "severe cold" and "allergies." But these are usually transient conditions. Once the stress passes, the bowel tolerance usually drops to between 4000 and 20000 mg daily. (There is one fellow we know of in in New Zealand who consumes 30,000 mg daily and seems otherwise perfectly healthy.)

If seeing Cathcart isn't an option, then anything else you can think of that may be the underlying cause of the condition. There is a irritation on the "outside" of your body - in the lungs or sinuses, that is causing mucous to form. The mucous is the body's defense. Your body is making an effort to remove foreign matter, but is still sensing its presence.

Might it be mercury from dental fillings? Might it be dust or asbestos? Or a virus like the cold or flu? Can you think of a toxin you might have been exposed to?

How is your nutrition other than vitamin C? There are over 50 substances that we require from food, and even more we should supplement as we age. I'd want to make sure that I was getting good amounts of everything to make sure that this isn't some strange reaction to a deficiency.

I'd try high amounts of vitamin A, for example. At least 50,000 iu.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

johnor

Possibly flu

Post Number:#3  Post by johnor » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:03 pm

I know when I began the Vitamin C regimen that the flu was going around. I felt slightly achy in the joints and had slight chills. As the dosage went up, the flu got worse- lots of mucus in lungs and sinuses. I think it would be a mistake to blame the flu symptoms on the Vitamin C regimen because there are a lot of other good signs that the C is working on me. C won't necessarily cure the flu if it has already taken a hold on the body IMO. As David Hume tells us there is no necessary relationship of causality between events that occur nearly simultaneously.

Best,
John

Zenith

Post Number:#4  Post by Zenith » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:02 am

Thanks for the replies. It is appreciated. I live in the UK so seeing Dr Cathcart is not a realistic option. Even if it was, I don't think I fit into the category of the privileged few who can afford treatment. Society dictates that I must do what I can for myself and to be honest, I think I do a reasonably good job. My diet is fairly good. I take regular exercise and I consume the regulation fruit and veg. I don't smoke and have very little alcohol. I take various supplments: garlic, selenium, kelp, evening primrose, zinc, magnesium, alicin, vitamin B. On top of that I take Himalayan salt crystals which are supposed to contain all the minerals our bodies require. Now that I'm on Vitamin C, I should be a walking health shop.

On the down side, the foreign bodies I can think of are three amalgam fillings and carbon fibre gorse in a repaired torn shoulder. My symptons manifested after both of these additions. I am making moves to have my amalgam fillings replaced with composite ones.

As for taking Vitamin A, how can I obtain this and does it come in powder or tablet form?

Ken_RN

Post Number:#5  Post by Ken_RN » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:15 pm

Zenith wrote:As for taking Vitamin A, how can I obtain this and does it come in powder or tablet form?

Vitamin A can be taken as itself (retinol) or as provitamin A (beta-carotene) which the body then converts to Vitamin A as it needs it. Vitamin A as retinol is fat-soluble and can be stored (and built-up) by the body over time. Like Vitamin D, toxicity is a concern with large doses. Beta-carotene has no toxicity - too much will just turn your skin orange-yellow, a condition called hypercarotenemia but it is harmless and will fade completely with decreased carotene intake. My recommendation is not to take more than 10,000IU Vitamin A as retinol and then if you want more to supplement with beta-carotene (or eat a lot of carrots, squash, etc. or try juicing). Others opinions will differ.

Just how much Vitamin A as retinol can the body make from beta-carotene? I'll quote Andrew Saul, Ph.D, contributing-editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, from his website doctoryourself.com on this:

Ideally, 6 milligrams (mg) of beta carotene can be converted into 10,000 International Units (I.U.) of vitamin A in the body (Bronson Pharmaceuticals' Health Through Nutrition, Summer 1994, p. 17). The carotene in just one medium carrot could provide 5,000 I.U. of vitamin A (U.S. Department of Agriculture, Nutritive Value of Foods, 1981). There is some question as to just how efficiently everyone's body can actually make vitamin A from carotene, and theoretical yields are likely to be overly optimistic.

Cod liver oil is a good source of Vitamin A as retinol. Plain retinol softgel capsules are available from different suppliers as are beta-carotene tablets. Carlson makes excellent quality fish oils. As you are in the UK and I'm in the US I don't know what vitamin supplier is good for you. Based on DanSco's recommendation I've started using Swanson as my main vitamin supplier except for vitamin E and fish oil which I get from Carlson Labs.

For information on Vitamin A see:
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/vit_0260.shtml
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000350.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0984/is_n5_v97/ai_13475144
http://www.doctoryourself.com/juicing_2.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/fatigue.html

davids

Re: Am I dosing correctly?

Post Number:#6  Post by davids » Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:01 pm

Hi Mike,

How you decide to handle this challenge is of course your call, and I'm certainly sorry to hear you are having a tough go of it.

I would offer the following observations/ideas:

1) The fact that you are up to 60 grams of ascorbic acid daily with [apparently] no "diarrhea," seems to me, to indicate that you have a significant need for the ascorbate.

2) If you decide to continue with the ascorbate (which, of course, I would), do not be afraid to ingest more [per day] IF your "bowel tolerance" indicates, i.e. allows, it.

3) If the discomfort is too great, you might want to consider one or both of these approaches:
a) taking some percentage of your ascorbate in the sodium form
b) backing off a little on the amount of ascorbate you ingest daily
In my opinion, either or both of these approaches would slow down the detoxification/healing, thereby taking a little more time to solve your health issues, but making it more tolerable for you in the process.)

4) If the ascorbic acid nasal solution is too acidic, you might try buffering it with the minimum amount of sodium bicarbonate that works for you.

5) Yes, it could be "just a case of VitC moving out the problem, a bit like detoxing." I offer as one example, the practice of fasting [for health improvement]. Untold numbers of people throughout thousands of years have improved and even cured countless ailments via various types of fasting. And yet a very common result of fasting is that at first, one often feels even worse, i.e. gets even more "sick," e.g. headaches are common [at first]. As the toxins in the body are expelled into the blood stream (and/or elsewhere) for excretion [from the body], it can make one feel pretty miserable!

I hope this helps Mike, and you have all my best wishes for a speedy resolution to your health issues.

David
Last edited by davids on Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Number:#7  Post by Guest » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:29 am

Thanks again for everyone's concern. Regarding Vitamin A, I do take daily amounts of Cod Liver Oil and have done so for many, many years. I also eat a reasonable amount of carrots. Maybe I'll up my intake on raw carrots and hope that this will cover my daily requirement for this vitamin along with the Cod Liver Oil.

I can only hope that my body is now responding to the huge intake of VitC and detoxification is indeed taking place. Knowing that fact alone is enough for me to be able to carry on with this programme until positive results are achieved. Regardless, there is no question of me abandoning taking regular daily doses of VitC at a more reasonable level after the maintenance programme is finished.

Regarding nasal polyps: they manifest as a direct result of excess mucus. I'm hoping they can recede in a similar fashion once the discharge of mucus has been brought under control. The only advice I can get from my physician is to have them removed surgically. I allowed this once before and they returned with a vengeance. I hate to think what would happen if I allow this operation to go ahead.

Maybe someone out there has gone through a similar experience?

Mike O

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Nasal Growths

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:27 am

At the risk of repeating, something is irritating your sinus, causing the body to react with mucous.

If the irritation is the growths, then the objective should be to make them go away. Somehow. I do not have any direct knowledge of nasal polyps, but I might try some of the unconventional anti-cancer treatments (since you say they grew back so fast), especially the pancreatic enzymes therapy combined with 6 g Cesium Chloride. If that doesn't work (within 30 days) then I would expand my internet search and try to find out whether someone has found a way to reduce/eliminate the growth of these polyps.

Surgery would be the last resort (since you say they grew back) but may be necessary.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthopath® (Orthomolecular Naturopath)
® is a trademark of the Institute for Orthomolecular Studies

Zenith

Post Number:#9  Post by Zenith » Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:04 am

Thanks for the advice ORF. Could you be more specific regarding the unconventional anti-cancer treatments? For example exactly what are these and how could I acquire them in the UK? There is a Catch-22 syndrome involved here with my condition. The mucus was the original trigger for the growths and now the growths (possibly) are the manifesting reason for the irritation of the mucous membrane. I still have a gut feeling that this genetically and hereditary weak area of my physiology is where the body finds it easiest to discharge its toxins. Hence the rhinitus and its associated condition is merely a sympton of a problem more deeply rooted somewhere else in my body.

I receive therapy from a guy who practices Amatsu, a hands-on ancient Japanese healing practice. Due to a long-standing trapped nerve problem in my groin area, he postulates [due to his physical confirmation that my liver has dropped] that there has been a cause and effect, knock-on situation which eventually reaches the spine via unbalanced organ, tendon and muscle tension. Maybe this inflamation of the liver is the cause of my problems? When I try and 'listen' to my body, I can't help but get the feeling that my 'separate' problems are, in some way, connected. Unfortunately he's not medically qualified to diagnose or document this hypothesis and when I mention this to my physician, he looks at me as if I have just landed from the planet Mars.

There are so many 'ifs', 'maybe's', 'whys', and 'hows' that I despair sometimes and begin to wonder at the so-called technology that is supposed to be at our disposal in this 21st century.

Thanks again for all the help offered.

Mike O

davids

"Alternative" approaches

Post Number:#10  Post by davids » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:07 pm

Zenith wrote:Could you be more specific regarding the unconventional anti-cancer treatments? For example exactly what are these and how could I acquire them in the UK?

Thanks again for all the help offered.

Mike O


Hi Mike,

Perhaps you might find the information on the following website of interest: http://home.bluegrass.net/~jclark/b17_dosage.htm

Also possibly: http://www.mwt.net/~drbrewer/highpH.htm

Maybe additionally: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/vitcancer.htm and http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/NHC/ ... _09_29.htm

"There is not one human disease that is not caused or accentuated by a lack of a mineral or vitamin." -- Dr. Linus Pauling, Double Nobel Prize Laureate

"There are more than ten thousand scientific papers that make it quite clear that there is not one body process (such as what goes on inside cells or tissues) and not one disease or syndrome (from the common cold to leprosy) that is not influenced - directly or indirectly - by vitamin C." -- Dr. Emanuel Cheraskin, M.D., Dr. Marshall Ringsdorf, D.M.D., and Dr. Emily Sisley, THE VITAMIN C CONNECTION.

“I have never seen a patient that Vitamin C would not benefit.” -- Dr. Frederick Klenner, M.D.

Best wishes,

David Smith

P.S. Be assured, I have no financial connection with any of these modalities or websites.

Zenith

Post Number:#11  Post by Zenith » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:20 pm

Thanks for that DS. I'll look into it. As for my previous posting, ORF suggested I look further on the Internet. I've come across http://www.sinuswars.com who are a US-based internet company specialising in homeopathic products. I don't know anything about them and wondered whether any of you guys over there have heard or found positive testimonials regarding their natural products. I had a bad experience ordering a DVD from a 'secure' internet company in the US once and I'm in no hurry to make the same mistake twice. However, this outfit does seem to concentrate on providing a product that is designed to help reduce or eliminate nasal polyps.

Mike O

J.Lilinoe

What is your diet like?

Post Number:#12  Post by J.Lilinoe » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:13 pm

Hi Z,

As David mentioned a few posts ago, you might try fasting.
My mom developed an allergy toward bread a long time ago, which cause her to get such a nasty cough that she could not eat and lost a lot of weight in a short time. We were very scared for her. Luckily, we took her to a naturopath (the only one in town back in the 80s) who put her on a soup diet with lots of cabbage, oninons, garlic, celery. He said the cabbage, onions, garlic were good for mucous build up. Of course he told her to quit eating bread. Well, her cough cleared up partly because she could not eat and thus could not eat bread and I think partly because she changed her diet. What a learning experience it was for all of us.
Take a look at what you are ingesting because maybe a food that you are eating too much of might be the culprit that is causing your polyps to keep flaring up. I like to think that those kinds of symptom like what you are having are the body's way of telling us to stop a bad habit. Just my 2 cents.

JL :D

J.Lilinoe

possible toxic build up?

Post Number:#13  Post by J.Lilinoe » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:34 pm

Hi again Z,

Your challenge with your health is also helping me with my own health. I really feel for you.
I am on my way to the HFS to get me some IP6 after reading Bill Sardi's article. According to him,
we all build up toxins in our bodies the longer we live and it is essential that we clean it out before we get sick.

http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com/report ... %20Cleanse

You might want to read what he has to say and begin taking the IP6 in the dose given at the end of the article.

Best of luck.
JL

Guest

Post Number:#14  Post by Guest » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:33 am

Thanks JL. I'm now in possession of IP6 thanks to your suggestion and Mr Sardi's personal help. I'd like to see the process and elimination end one day so let's hope IP6 along with VitC will be the final answer.

Mike O

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Re: Am I dosing correctly?

Post Number:#15  Post by dectiri » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:32 am

My daughter and I do cat rescue work and were just told that the little fellow [we've thought might have residual trouble from heartworm because it goes to the lungs/respiratory system in cats, unlike dogs ] we cherish has likely some nasalpharangeal polyps and the vet wants to do surgery and was abrupt with us when we asked questions...

so when we got home (only allowing a bacterial antibiotic so far as well as getting the vet to write a prescription for IV-C from a compounder for the surgery since we had possibly 'influenced' his school mindset with a copy of Belfield and Stone's veterinary article on megascorbic prophylaxis etc) we did Dr Google type second opinion...

Among the online resources was a Cornell Univ veterinary result that concluded that the causes for these polyps was a calcivirus, a herpes virus, etc, possibly congenital in kittens..... birth feral... so we looked a bit at Saul's Doctor Yourself pages and he had a link to a 1975 paper on rectal polyps treated with a paltry 3g C per day...

In our work with this cat we found that the only way we can get some C into him without incurring the mushies is with Liposomal, but his ability to eat is being affected and so we are now looking at that IV-C option.. Surely there must be a naturopath in the UK that could do the IV-C for your condition before it gets so much worse....

As for price... the vets surgery was anticipated to be $500 to start, never mind the follow up stuff we found out about at Mercola's veterinary reports.. We had priced the size doses needed for a 10lb cats in conversations with a local compounder for a Belfield-size sequence of vials for IV-C [PRESERVATIVE-FREE] at $110 and had asked the vet for a different episode for an estimate of his charges for 5 days of such IV-C and was told that it would be $100/day for IV-admin and hospital services....

but although that would be the same $500 (plus $110 pharmacy charges) IF THE PROCESS REQUIRED THE FULL 5 DAYS & DOSES....... MAYBE BELFIELD'S ESTIMATES OF 3 DAYS (average/normal usual experience at 1g/lb/day) WOULD CUT THAT DOWN --- PLUS THE SURGERY HAZARDS WOULD BE GONE, AND HEALTH-IMPROVEMENT (ala Klenner) WOULD REPLACE IT...

SURELY THE POLYPS WOULD BE GONE, DON'T YOU THINK SO? *Never* to return as the virus is wiped out totally systemically -- unlike surgery with nothing but antibiotics....... crossing our fingers and bracing for the veterinarian's wrath at our trashing his proposed surgical prowess and unquestioningable-trustworthiness.......

In your case, the need for a lot of swallowing could also be exacerbating the polyp and adding to its growth and troubles... we have seen that happen... so the use of liposomal and water may not be so good unless it would be a lot fewer grams....

otoh IV-C would escape the swallowing aggravating the polyp but the IV-C pharmacy prices are double the size of liposomal prices PER GRAM iirc... here in Ohio, anyway.... Hope you get help from UK resources..... no clue on naturopath prices, b/c here in Ohio they are subjected to servicing MDs...... ttyl


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